Y la continuación y final de la recopilación de citas positivas sobre el Tifón
:
31) Evaluación de Singapur en 2005, el Typhoon quedó primero, por delante de F-15 y Rafale. Pero por problemas con calendario, ganó el F-15. El Rafale quedó en tercer lugar. Esto coincide con el punto 12) anterior:
The key fact that I heard again and again from sources who did not then want to be named was that the Typhoon had 'won' the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) evaluation, and that it had been the RSAF's favoured technical solution, not least by demonstrating particular capabilities that the opposing types could not.As we all know, the aircraft was then rejected before its two competitors, showing that it had effectively become Singapore's 'third choice.
The Singapore MINDEF press release emphasized that the Typhoon was “a very capable aircraft”, but that “the committed schedule for the delivery of the Typhoon and its systems did not meet the requirements of the RSAF.”
The problem was apparently partly one of delivery timescales, but mainly one of the Eurofighter partner nations' continuing inability to accurately and credibly define the content of the Tranche 2 and Tranche 3 Typhoon capability packages.
Singapore needed Tranche 2/3 capabilities that were 'road-mapped' but unfunded, and wanted them in a timescale that could only be met by taking Tranche 1 aircraft.
But this fact (that Typhoon was the RSAF's favoured choice) has always been rejected by the Rafale fans, on the basis that the sources were anonymous, and that I was the journalist involved.
And now, eight years on, we’re about to get a named source, closely involved in the evaluation,
confirming to a different journalist, that the RSAF ‘loved the Typhoon’, that Typhoon had been their favourite, and indeed that it had been the aircraft that they wanted. And it will be confirmed that Typhoon was defeated because they, the RSAF, couldn’t be confident of getting the Tranche 2 capabilities that they needed.jon lake
http://typhoon.starstreak.net/forum/vie ... f=1&t=2045
32) Sobre Canadá: hace unos años (2006) los canadienses buscaron posibles alternativas al F-35 (Rafale, EFA, Gripen y SuperHornet), y los documentos asociados se han revelado recientemente: voces críticas cuestionan el resultado de la evaluación canadiense de aquél año y piden más pruebas de que el inmaduro F-35 sea la mejor opción. Dicen que el SuperHornet y el Eurofighter estaban por encima del F-35, según una presentación hecha al Jefe de la FA de Canadá en febrero de 2011, según la cual, el Rafale y el Gripen fueron descartados rotundamente.
05/8/2012
...
A copy of the air force's preliminary analysis, also obtained under access to information, provides a snapshot of each the competitors.
The operational requirements and concept document, dated June 2006
...
Boeing's Super Hornet and Eurofighter's Typhoon were stacked up against the controversial and not fully tested F-35s, according to a February 2011 slide deck presentation to the chief of air staff.
...
The other contenders, including the French-manufactured Dassault Rafale and SAAB Gripen, were dismissed outright, according to the analysis.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/fpnews ... wstopstoryhttp://thechronicleherald.ca/canada/943 ... a-in-brief
33) Más de Tayun en el FMG a finales de 2010 sobre que Typhoon y cazas "tuneados" anteriores no tienen nada que ver:
…Los diseños setenteros de los teen fighters (F-15, F-16, F-18) y equivalentes rusos (Mig-29, Su-27), son tan válidos hoy en día como el EF-2000 nacido más o menos contemporáneamente. Todos debidamente actualizados y mejorados…
No, los teen y sus equivalentes nacieron en su momento, y el Tifón nació en el suyo. Cuando los Teen nacían y comenzaban a volar, el Tifón era una idea y muchos dibujos. Un concepto de algo que se quería. El Tifón acaba de nacer hace tres años, cuando llega a unas unidades que primero tienen que cambiar la forma de hacer las cosas que significaban su oficio, después tienen que evaluar que lo que otros tios han probado antes y ahora les cuentan a ellos es cierto. Acomodarse a una nueva realidad, al nuevo concepto de guerra en red.
Por supuesto que esos Teen actualizados no están a la altura del Tifón, porque están actualizados al día de hoy, pero no pensados para librar la guerra del mañana.Solo el Super Hornet de todos los occidentales que nombras, está pensado desde el principio para desarrollar ese nuevo concepto de guerra aérea, pero al Rhino estarás de acuerdo en que no podemos considerarlo un refrito de uno de los mejores aviones del mundo. Hubo que hacerle algún apaño más.
PD: Un detalle, hoy creo que nadie que pretenda ser objetivo puede dudar que como caza, el Tifón es una bestia parda, muy parda.
Y Charly015, defensor de lo ruso, en noviembre de 2008 en este mismo foro:
Si yo fuese un dirigente de una Fuerza Aérea y tuviese que elegir entre el Su-30MK/Su-35 y el Tifón me quedaría sin mirarlo con el caza Europeo porque hoy representa el futuro mientras que el Sujoi representa el presente y quizá el mañana pero nada más.
...El diseño ruso está en su limite evolutivo y el Tifón está empezando a evolucionar ahora con sus tranches...
hoy un Su-35 es comparable a un Tifón -incluso un Su-30MKI o etc- pero a medio plazo la evolución tecnológica de la nueva generación de cazas superará al diseño ruso
34) De la revista AIR international sobre el ejercicio Indra Danush III que tuvo lugar entre octubre y noviembre de 2010 entre ingleses e indios. Los primeros desplegaron 6 Tifones y un E-3 y los segundos pusieron a disposición Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000H, Mig-27, A-50 y otros:
Los indios estaban impresionados por la potencia y prestaciones del EFA. En zonas húmedas y altas los cazas pierden prestaciones, sin embargo el EFA no parece perderlas.
Las prestaciones de los EJ200 son una de las bazas clave del EFA. La conciencia situacional y el MMI son otras grandes bazas. La información mostrada en cabina está muy bien filtrada y expuesta, el Link-16 funciona genial y poder introducir datos no sólo electrónicamente si no también con voz es otro punto a favor.
De hecho, los EFAs actuaron a veces como mini-AWACs para cazas como los Mirage 2000H redistribuyendo la info que recibían de aviones AEW mediante el MIDS.
Otra fuente sobre Tifones contra Su-30MKI:
'British Typhoons whacked India's Sukhois in joint exercises'
24 July 2011
"Well, they lost," was Stephen Dalton's (Britain's air chief) response when IANS asked how the Russia-developed India-manufactured Su-30MKI air superiority jets performed against the Royal Air Force's (RAF) Typhoons when they matched their wits during the joint exercises in recent years.
However, he was quick to add that the two aircraft are different in technologies, and that Typhoons are next generation, and hence there is no comparison.
The two aircraft were pitted against each other during 'Indradhanush' exercises in 2007 at Waddington in Britain and in 2010 at Kalaikunda in India.
Dalton also indicated that the IAF inventory of Sukhois, MiGs and Mirages are no match to the Typhoons.
http://twocircles.net/2011jul24/british ... cises.html
35) Información sobre el desempeño del Typhoon en la guerra de Libia. Primero sobre los ingleses (Operation Ellamy):
The Typhoon's most impressive characteristic, to those not familiar with its potent performance, was the ease with which it carried large weapon payloads over significant distances in the changeable air environment. On several occasions, en route to the operating area, Typhoon pilots were able to climb over thunderstorms that required other aircraft, with less performance, to re-route around them. This characteristic stood Typhoon apart from its contemporaries.
Carrying up to 4x air-to-air missiles, 4x 1,000 lb bombs, a targeting pod and two under-wing fuel tanks [1.000 lt], Typhoon can fly at 40,000 feet and at speeds of over 500 knots [a esa altura eso es casi Mach 0.9] while using relatively little fuel. This low fuel consumption had obvious benefits in terms of endurance; it allowed Typhoon to loiter over significant periods providing airborne cover with its complement of air-to-air weapons. Moreover, it also ensured that the Typhoon was less of an air-to-air refuelling burden in the busy airspace.
(Source: House of Commons Report on Operations in Libya)
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... libya.html
Asked what he felt were the advantages of the Typhoon, Wg. Cdr. Attridge said “For me it was looking at the air-picture of the entire operating area, whilst on the ground at Gioia Del Colle. Our Link-16 datalink allowed us to zoom into any area, interrogate tracks to see who was operating where and pick up tasking. If you combine this with the outrageous thrust to weight advantage that Typhoon enjoys you have an aircraft that carries a lot of ordnance, with a pilot that has no doubt where that payload is going to be delivered".
Several times Typhoon pilots were forced to climb over thundercloud activity en route to the Area of Operation, whilst other aircraft with less performance were forced to re-route. What makes Typhoon stand apart from its contemporaries is that even when carrying 4 x 1000 lb weapons, a targeting pod and 2 underwing tanks it can still fly at 40,000 feet, with impressive fuelrates statistics. This has obvious benefits in terms of endurance and more importantly, it ensures that the Typhoon is less of a burden on the air refuelling plan in the air-space.
“From a pilot's perspective, the aircraft is spectacular. Despite spending on average 7 hours in the cockpit per mission you could not find a more comfortable aircraft to fly. The cockpit is large by fast-jet standards and the information from the radar, DASS and LINK-16 is displayed easily and accessibly. This allows you to function at 100% capability throughout the sortie, not plagued by fatigue or a lack of situational awareness. Due to the aircraft's huge excess power it enables the flight from Gioia to Libya, some 650 miles, to take just over an hour, cruising at 40 000 feet, 0.9 mach, even with a war load of 4 Enhanced Paveway II 1000 lb bombs, a Litening III Targeting POD, AMRAAM and ASRAAM missiles.
Overall success rate: 97%
http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/we ... 011web.pdfhttp://www.eurofighter.com/media/news0/ ... tions.html
'The UK did not need Harriers over Libya'
23 May 2012
In the second of two articles on commanders' thoughts on Operation Ellamy, Air Commodore Gary Waterfall explains the role of Typhoon, the need for Sentinel and how Britain performed without aircraft carriers
...
During Operation Ellamy last year, the Royal Air Force went to great lengths to conduct air operations with the high degree of precision that was ultimately achieved despite the lack of ground personnel to aid targeting.
...
As well as surveillance aircraft, Typhoon performed "extremely well" on its first operational deployment outside its Quick Reaction Alert role, Waterfall said.
...
"It really heralded the dawn of the multirole capability in terms of being able to put bombs on it as well as air-to-air missiles," he said.
...
"We are still growing the force, we're still limited in the numbers of squadrons we have got and we are still expanding the force and getting our capability together and we will take all of those important lessons into future decisions as to the impact on the software and putting further developments on the aircraft."
Question: Were operations limited by Typhoon's fledgling air-to-ground capability, which saw it only able to deploy the older Paveway II?"No, because the Tornado and the Typhoon operated together, and by operating together the sum was very much in excess of the total component part of the two aircraft," he says.
"You had the Typhoon, a 21st-century, capable aircraft with all of its data link - and you had to know exactly where people were at the right time - and using its radar and of course its air-to-air missiles. In addition it had the Paveway bomb. You then marry that with the Tornado with a two-crew concept, people who are battle-hardened in terms of what they had done over Afghanistan and in Telic over Iraq for many, many years; and fusing those two sensors and aircraft together was a really powerful combination.
"The range and the flexible response that the Paveway IV affords you is clearly much better than you can get on Paveway II, which is why many times if we needed to have that range of accuracy we could use the Paveway IV, and if we didn't we could use the Paveway II."
http://www.defencemanagement.com/featur ... p?id=19767
[In Libya] Many pundits see Libya as Typhoon simply dropping one type of bomb in a pretty limited way, but it was actually much more about Typhoon’s position within the information net and how it was able to facilitate just about everything in terms of the prosecution and, in some cases detection of fleeting targets.
In many ways, Typhoon over Libya could be considered a BACN (Battlefield Airborne Communications Node) with bombs, supersonic performance and a formidable air-defence capability. I heard of one four-ship mission where three Tornados and a Typhoon bombed on GPS, taking out 17 targets simultaneously. The Typhoon then turned around and while he dropped his final two bombs, the pilot did bomb damage assessment with his TP [targeting pod]. At the same time, his jet was providing enhanced EW protection to the entire package. The RAF has Typhoon set up to allow a single pilot to have full SA [situational awareness], while precision bombing and doing BDA [bomb damage assesment] in a hostile environment with a very real EM threat.
In a mixed Tornado/Typhoon formation, threats detected by the Tornado’s systems – and the Tornado GR4 is no slouch when it comes to self-protection – were dismissed or reacted to based on what the Typhoon’s sensors were reporting, because the Typhoon system is considered so good. Typhoon’s radar also came into play looking for tankers in the busy, but large and sometimes very empty skies over the Med [Mediterranean Sea], and allowed the jet to deconflict traffic where communications, for whatever reason, had broken down [mini-AWACS].
http://hushkit.wordpress.com/2012/04/24 ... n-typhoon/
“The first thing with Typhoon is performance. By which I mean engines and airframe,” he replied. “The ability to climb to 40,000ft plus without using reheat means you don’t have a fuel penalty to get to those heights. The fact that you can loiter at those heights means you can spend more time in the area
...
There was no single component that caused a significant problem and the general serviceability of the aircraft significantly surprised me. I wasn’t expecting it to perform as well as it did – we could fly it for six hours, turn it, fly it for another six hours and it would land serviceable
...
Describing the tactical advantages Sqn Ldr Bolton said of Typhoon’s performance capability: “We can put four 1,000 pound weapons on board, fuel tanks, air-to-air missiles and a Litening 3 pod, and still be able to manoeuvre the aircraft with carefree handling just because of the engines and the airframe. It’s just fantastic. Typhoon is a very, very easy aeroplane to fly.”
Such ease of flying allows the pilot to focus on being a battle space manager, monitoring the radar and other sensors for the best employment of weapons to achieve the best effect.
...
“The thing that Typhoon gives you, even when she’s carrying air-to-surface weapons, is that the performance still allows you to easily get high and fast enough, to launch a more robust shot that is much harder to defeat, so therefore more deadly.
The author asked Wg Cdr Wells if Typhoon suffers any detriment to performance in an air-to-air engagement when carrying up to four 1,000lb (454kg) bombs. “No, that’s one of the really great things about the jet. Even in a multi-role fit touting four AMRAAMs, two ASRAAMs, two under wing tanks, four 1,000lb-class weapons and a Litening pod, your performance on height and fuel burn isn’t hugely adversely affected.
She’s just easy to fly in that sort of heavy fit.
“When flying a legacy platform, much more of your capacity and focus would have been on purely flying the aircraft, as opposed to operating it, whereas with Typhoon you can just plug in the auto throttle, auto pilot if you need, depending on the phase of the mission, and she’ll just take all of your issues away.”
http://www.baesystems.com/download/BAES ... n-the-road
Y sobre los Tifones italianos en Libia:
Desplegaron 6 aviones. Su efectividad ha sido de media 95%, confimando una cifra que se corrobora cada vez que se despliegan en misiones, ejercicios y exhibiciones. Misiones aire-aire de duración media 3 horas a casi 1.000 km de su base de despliegue. Volaban con 3 depos de 1.000 l, 4 AMRAAM y 4 Iris-T (más cañón). Excelente servicio del DASS y señuelos. 201 misiones con 1.294 horas voladas:
The RAF was not the only air force to have used the Eurofighter Typhoon with great effectiveness during the operations in Libya.
For the Italian Air Force too, NATO’s activities in Libya represented the combat debut of their Typhoon aircraft and saw positive feedback of the aircraft’s capabilities.
Regularly operating in Libya’s Defensive Counter Air (DCA) and Offensive Counter Air (OCA – escort to Air to Ground Assets) missions.
The average Italians’ mission time was of about 3 hours in length with some lasting up to 8 hours, including up to three in-flight refuellings. The Italian aircraft operated at considerable distances from their bases, up to 200nm south of Tripoli (approx. 950 km from their deployment base from Trapani-Birgi), and over Bengasi and Sirte (approx. 980 km from Trapani).
The normal Typhoon configuration was with three external fuel tanks each with 800 kg-fuel [1.000 litros], four AMRAAM under the fuselage and four IRIS-T infrared missiles on the external wing pylons. In addition to the missile systems, the aircraft also had the internal 27mm Mauser cannon with 150 shots. The use of the DASS self-defence system and chaff and flares was excellent for both the RAF and Italian Air Forces.
The green light for operations was given to the Typhoons of the Italian Air Force on March 17th at 23.00 hrs, and on Sunday March 20th at 13.00 hrs six aircraft from the two Italian Typhoon Wings were already deployed to Trapani in Sicily. Just two hours later, the aircraft were ready for action.
In total, the Italian Air Force carried out 201 completed missions with the Typhoons over 203 tasked (99%) and flew 1.294 Flying Hours from Trapani between March and July 2011.
The Typhoon efficiency at Trapani has been, on average, 95% while the efficiency at the Main Operational Bases was, on average 75%, confirming the low footprint and easy maintenance of the aircraft under combat deployment status. These are facts already recorded by Eurofighter air forces in exercises and deployments all around the world (Laage; Bangalore and Kalaikunda, India; Israel; Malaysia; UAE; Oman; the US; the Baltic; Iceland and the Falklands Islands).
http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/we ... 012012.pdf
36) Sobre la evaluación técnica india del MMRCA, de la revista Air Forces Monthly (AFM) nº 282 september 2011 ("Typhoon vs. Rafale. Which will win in India?"):
Detalles del artículo:
- Durante las pruebas con una configuración de 60-70% de combustible interno, un depósito externo, misiles BVR y WVR y dos bombas AS, sólo el Typhoon y el Mig-35 demostraron mantener una relación empuje/peso mayor de 1:1.
- Por encima de 40.000 pies el EFA es superior al Rafale en todo, incluyendo aceleración, tasa y radio de giro, Gs sostenibles, etc.
- El Eurofighter puede supercrucear (supercrucero) con la carga completa de misiles AA aire-aire (armas) y de depósitos (depos).
- El EFA se está equipando con un visor de casco de última generación bifocal.
Y de un análisis de defensa externo independiente sobre los contendientes al MMRCA antes de su evaluación (Mig-35, SuperHornet, F-16IN Block60, Rafale, Gripen NG y Typhoon):
Out of all the aircraft, the Typhoon conformed most closely to the Request for Proposals, and in a purely technical sense, it arguably remains the most sophisticated airplane in the mix
...
The Typhoon, perhaps, has an edge here mostly because of its excellent human factors engineering.
...
When these competitors are considered on balance, the Eurofighter probably edges to the top of the final four in terms of overall sophistication, but barely.
...
The Typhoon, too, comes closest to the static requirements of the MMRCA Request for Proposals, or at least appears able to comply with them with fewest changes.
...
the IAF has emphasized the air-to-air requirements when evaluating the aerodynamic efficiency of the various MMRCA contenders because of both mission priorities and the reality described earlier: that airframes capable of superlatively performing the air combat mission are likely to be found satisfactory for the air-to-ground requirement as well
...
It [the Eurofighter] also exhibits striking short takeoff and landing performance.
...
In fact, the Eurofighter remains the only aircraft among the MMRCA competitors to have demonstrated some sort of supercruise capability.
...
http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf
37) Dato del Eurofighter ´para Austria publicado en el número de septiembre de 2011 de la revista Fuerzas de Defensa y Seguridad FDS (nº 401):
En el concurso para la FA austríaca el EFA demostró ser netamente superior al F-16C [Block 52+] y al Gripen [C] en 800 de las 1.000 características evaluadas.
38 ) Datos sueltos sobre el Typhoon:
El Typhoon puede supercrucear reconocidamente a entre mach 1.1 y 1.3 (mach 1.4 según la evaluación suiza de 2008) con carga completa de misiles AA y depos.
Con los 3 depos y armas AA puede volar con PC sostenidamente a mach 1.6.
Con una configuración de 60-70% de combustible interno, un depósito, AAMs y dos bombas AS, el Typhoon mantiene una relación empuje/peso mayor de 1:1.
Con 4 bombas de 1.000 lb, dos depos, LDP y misiles AA (WVR y BVR) puede volar en crucero a mach 0.9 y 40.000 pies de altura, pudiendo meterle más de 5,5 Gs de carga y más de 20º de AoA.
39) El Tifón puede hacer virguerías cargado a tope como ningún otro caza existente, y lo mostró en Farnborough en verano de 2006 (ya puesto) y luego en verano de 2010 y 2011:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ENnEQkh ... r_embeddedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4psRKtsy9cIPA 5 will fly in a swing-role configuration, including four Paveway II laser guided bombs (1000 lb), two 1000 ltr fuel tanks, four AMRAAMs and two ASRAAMs and will highlight to the trade and public visitors that the Typhoon is agile regardless of weapon load, pulling up to an impressive 5.5g and in excess of 20 degrees angle of attack.
http://www.eurofighter.com/media/news0/ ... attoo.html
40) Además del blocaje radar a larga distancia y de la detección mediante el DASS que lograron Typhoon ingleses sobre Raptors en 2005 en EEUU (ya citado), más recientemente también lograron detecciones suyas mediante el IRST Pirate (citado en artículo de diciembre de 2011):
41) Un piloto de SuperHornet australiano Australia dijo a finales de 2011 que preferiría volar en Typhoon tras el ejercicio Bersama Lima 2011 en que ambos cazas se midieron:
42) En declaraciones de principios de 2012, un ex-piloto de F-15 saudí que ahora vuelo el Typhoon, está emocionado con el Typhoon, especialmente con su potencial aire-suelo:
43) Extracto de un artículo de abril de 2012, de entrevista a pilotos de Tifón de la RAF:
What I’m hearing is that in the air-to-air arena, especially with the HMS and Meteor, but even now, without the missile, the more experienced guys and girls on Typhoon would happily fly against anything and expect minimal losses. They are very, very confident. No one, on or off record, has said anything less than the superlative about Typhoon. I’ve been told that the aircraft is extremely powerful, with sufficient excess power to cope with planned upgrades. Hanging weapons on the jet makes little difference to its performance
Pilots use the throttles carefully so as not to push the aircraft supersonic by accident.
...
It is also the case that the RAF flies its Typhoons for airframe life, rather than extreme, ragged-edge-of-envelope performance. That’s not to say that such performance isn’t there, but it is telling that in regular training RAF pilots take Typhoon out to 9g. On the face of it, not such an impressive claim – USAF F-15A pilots were doing that in the 1980s – but Typhoon has the power and pilot support systems to go out to 9g and stay there, as a matter of course. And that’s when it’s being flown conservatively.
...
[In Libya] Many pundits see Libya as Typhoon simply dropping one type of bomb in a pretty limited way, but it was actually much more about Typhoon’s position within the information net and how it was able to facilitate just about everything in terms of the prosecution and, in some cases detection of fleeting targets.
In many ways, Typhoon over Libya could be considered a BACN (Battlefield Airborne Communications Node) with bombs, supersonic performance and a formidable air-defence capability. I heard of one four-ship mission where three Tornados and a Typhoon bombed on GPS, taking out 17 targets simultaneously. The Typhoon then turned around and while he dropped his final two bombs, the pilot did bomb damage assessment with his TP [targeting pod]. At the same time, his jet was providing enhanced EW protection to the entire package. The RAF has Typhoon set up to allow a single pilot to have full SA [situational awareness], while precision bombing and doing BDA [bomb damage assesment] in a hostile environment with a very real EM threat.
In a mixed Tornado/Typhoon formation, threats detected by the Tornado’s systems – and the Tornado GR4 is no slouch when it comes to self-protection – were dismissed or reacted to based on what the Typhoon’s sensors were reporting, because the Typhoon system is considered so good. Typhoon’s radar also came into play looking for tankers in the busy, but large and sometimes very empty skies over the Med [Mediterranean Sea], and allowed the jet to deconflict traffic where communications, for whatever reason, had broken down [mini-AWACS].
http://hushkit.wordpress.com/2012/04/24 ... n-typhoon/
44) De abril de 2012:
Typhoon proved to be the real winner in the exercise [Bersama Lima 2011] despite aircraft performance being reduced for security purposes. The squadron pilots were full of praise for the new capability and "at no time did a Typhoon pilot feel threatened". Typhoons were always on top in air combat. [Mig-29 malasios, F-16 de Singapur, SuperHornet australianos y F-15SG de Singapur]
...
The Typhoon design conserves, still intact, its full growth potential to cope with an uncertain future, as no major modifications to its basic characteristics and architecture has yet taken place. High on the priority list is the latest generation AESA radar antenna mounted on a moveable re-positioner for a best-in-class scan volume. Closely matched to the sensors step improvement is the integration of a new class of long range air-to-air missile with a greatly expanded No Escape Zone. These two high quality enhancements will further close the capability gap with the F-22 and bring Typhoon to the pinnacle of the air dominance fighters.
http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/we ... 012012.pdf
45) En mayo de 2012, el forista EELightning ha afirmado esto en Keypublishing respecto al ejercicio Frisian Flag de este año 2012 donde participaban Tifones ingleses y alemanes (junto con F-16 de varias naciones, Gripen, F-15, F-18), y donde al parecer se portaron genial:
Frisian Flag ’12, which involved; Swedish Gripens, American F-15Cs, Dutch, Norwegian & Belgian F-16s, Finnish F-18Cs, German and British No. 3(F) Squadron Typhoons. Concerning the RAF Typhoon fleet, at least, they were tasked to perform multi-role sorties while facing an A/A threat with the same weapons configuration (simulated) they operated with over Libya – 4x EPWII, 6x A/A missiles, 2x drop tanks. Mission Commanders generally put them out front to sweep the airspace or if they wanted a lot of weapons to be carried a long way. On one occasion a four ship RAF Typhoon fleet claimed between four and six kills each and within four minutes destroyed in excess of 20 aircraft. So, they were significantly outnumbered on that occasion yet they got out unharmed.
31st May 2012, 17:09
EELightning
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... 86&page=19
46) Sobre el ejercicio Magic Carpet que tuvo lugar en 2012 en Omán (país muy posible comprador de Tifones). Cita la abrumadora superioridad demostrada por el Typhoon sobre el F-16 y, como es también habitual, la excelente disponibilidad:
April 25, 2012
...
The training conducted by the Squadron over the detachment would range from Air combat against F-16s (which resulted in a resounding win for the Typhoon each and every time,) to close air support and live weapon drops.
Following the sorties to the range an exercise COMAO (Combined Air Operations) wave got airborne each day. Mission Commanders for the blue air assets were nominated each day, comprising of members from both the RAF and RAFO. The typical COMAO wave consisted of 4 to 6 Typhoons, 4 Jaguars, 4 200 series Hawks and a number of F-16s.
From this mix the Typhoons, F-16s and Hawks would either contribute to the blue and red OCA (Offensive Counter Air) or DCA (Defensive Counter Air) portion of the missions, whilst the Jaguars would fulfil the air to ground role.
However during the final days of the exercise XI Squadron Typhoons were performing in an air to air role as well as accomplishing the air to ground tasks. Exercise Double Diamond, two weeks prior to the deployment proved to be an excellent springboard for Exercise Magic Carpet and as a result XI Squadron gave a good account of themselves amongst the Omani Air Force during the COMAO missions.
Over the next three weeks..... Throughout the Exercise due to a magnificent performance by the engineering team, working day and night, aircraft serviceability was excellent and the Squadron as a result only dropped one sortie. In total XI Squadron logged in excess of 260 flying hours across the detachment.
http://www.onetooneonline.co.uk/sqnnews ... rpet-2012/
47) Extracto de artículo de verano de 2012:
Europe’s Typhoon Fighter
By Carl Posey
Air & Space magazine, July 2012
...
At its peak, Ellamy put 32 British aircraft into the conflict, including six Typhoons led by Wing Commander Jez Attridge, a big, fit 42-year-old now serving as capability manager for the RAF Typhoon fleet. We talked last October, on Ellamy’s final day, at the Ministry of Defence in Whitehall.
Attridge had flown Tornados out of the RAF’s Leuchars air base in Fife, and, assigned to the U.S. Marines for three years, became carrier-qualified in the F/A-18, which he described as “a great stepping stone to the Typhoon.” When the RAF attacked Libya, Attridge was commanding the Typhoon squadron that struck.
...
The other quality Typhoon pilots talk about a lot is “carefree handling.” Almost every airplane will, at some combination of angle of attack, speed, and trim, stall—depart, as they say. But, so far at least, the Typhoon’s departure, if there is one, remains its secret. “Nothing you can do to depart it,” said Attridge. “The Typhoon is very precise, not a jerky airplane, not like you’re flying along on the edge of a knife. The engine response is as precise as on Hornets, which you need for carrier operations. You feel attached to it.”
...
Flying the Tornado in mock combat exercises, Attridge said, he was often “glad when it was over.” No longer. He has flown the Typhoon in exercises against the Mirage 2000, F-15, Su-30 Mk.2, and F-16, none of which “caused any problem for the jet in a visual fight.” One civilian observer at Warton, familiar with the Typhoon’s capabilities, was less kind. Beating F-16s in a Typhoon, he told me, was about as challenging as “clubbing seals.” The Typhoon also reportedly was able to get a radar lock on the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor—the top U.S. fighter—in a 2006 exercise at Naval Air Station China Lake, according to International Air Power Review magazine [y también Tifon han blocado Raptor con DASS en 2005/06 y en 2010 con el IRST Pirate].
...
Whatever its fate in the global marketplace, the Typhoon will have a long life and prosper. In Britain, the future also means working well with a competing aircraft. “In the future, you could see the Joint Strike Fighter and Typhoon working closely together,” says Commander Adam Clink, now with the Joint Combat Aircraft Program at Whitehall, which oversees the integration of the F-35 into British service. The Typhoon, which by then will have matured as a multi-role combat jet, would work in concert with the Joint Strike Fighter, Clink says, providing cover while the JSF conducts deep penetrations into—and escapes from—heavily defended airspace.
...
If and when the Typhoon and Lightning II go off to war, it will probably be with autonomous, unmanned combat aerial vehicles. They are the future.
http://www.airspacemag.com/military-avi ... c=y&page=1
48 ) Sobre el ejercicio Distant Frontier de 4 días de duración previo al Red Flag 2-2012 en EEUU al que fueron 8 Tifones alemanes, y donde se enfrentaron 8 veces contra Raptors en BFM 1vs.1 a cañón sin visor de casco. De uno de los reporteros que está cubriendo ese evento:
http://typhoon.starstreak.net/forum/vie ... 8&start=20Jon lake: "The unique capabilities (of the Raptor) are overwhelming, but when you get to the merge, the Typhoon does not have to fear the F-22." Colonel Andreas Pfeiffer, OC JG74.
(The Typhoon will not meet the F-22 in air combat during Red Flag Alaska (both are blue force), but the Germans did BFM with the Raptors on two days during Exercise Distant Frontier immediately beforehand.
Y más fuentes con eso exactamente:
La siguiente fuente habla también sobre los combates BFM 1 vs. 1 a cañón contra el Raptor. Pilotos de F-22 Raptor defienden que no hubo una superioridad clara del Tifón sobre el Raptor en dogfight, y que muchas veces "sobremaniobraban" a los Tifones gracias a las toberas vectoriales y su mayor AoA, y que varias veces lograban cañonearlo. Pero reconocen que el Eurofighter es muy bueno, que tiene buena energía y unos muy buenos primeros giros.
Por su parte, el oficial alemán da a entender que sí hubo superioridad del Typhoon sobre el F-22 Raptor en combate cercano, exclusivamente, ya que reconoce la clara superiorida en BVR del Raptor, lógica gracias a su furtividad y prestaciones. Dice que el Eurofighter tiene mejor aceleración que el Raptor y mayor tasa de ascenso.
Y que Raptors y Tifones juntos son una combinación letal:
German Eurofighters impress during Red Flag debut
3/07/2012
As part of the Distant Frontier exercise, F-22s from the USAF's 525th Fighter Squadron faced off against the German fighters in visual-range basic fighter manoeuvres (BFM) combat training.
While Grune does not directly say that the Eurofighters emerged as the overall victors, he strongly implies it.
"I put out some whiskey. If they come back with some good performances, and if you know what the goal is from a BFM setup, and you achieve that, then I will pay you whiskey," he says. "And I paid quite a lot of whiskey."
That account, however, is strongly disputed by USAF sources flying the F-22. "It sounds as though we have very different recollections as to the outcomes of the BFM engagements that were fought," one Raptor pilot says.
USAF sources say that the Typhoon has good energy and a pretty good first turn, but that they were able to outmanoeuvre the Germans due to the Raptor's thrust vectoring. Additionally, the Typhoon was not able to match the high angle of attack capability of the F-22. "We ended up with numerous gunshots," another USAF pilot says.
...
says Lt Col Paul Moga, commander of the 525th Fighter Squadron. "Our recent BFM hops with the German air force Typhoons were outstanding. While certain uncontrollable factors such as weather and manoeuvring limitations did not allow for full-up engagements, it is suffice to say that there was much learning across the board. The details of each set-up are privy only to the pilots that flew them, as that is the sacred standard among fighter pilots.
One thing is for certain - Raptors and Typhoons are a lethal combination."...
Grune says that the Raptor's advantage lies in its stealth and ability to dominate air-to-air fights from beyond visual range. That is not disputed by USAF sources.
"Its unique capabilities are overwhelming from our first impressions in terms of modern air combat," Pfeiffer says. "But once you get to the merge, which is only a very small spectrum of air combat, in that area the Typhoon doesn't have to fear the F-22 in all aspects."The Typhoons were stripped of their external fuel tanks and slicked off as much as possible before the encounter with the Raptors, says Grune, who adds that in that configuration, the Typhoon is an "animal".
Pfeiffer notes that
the Eurofighter has better acceleration and can out-climb the F-22. Additionally, he says that the Raptor sinks when it is using its thrust vectoring capabilities, although one USAF source says he is skeptical of the German claims.
Overall, Grune says the two aircraft are closely matched in the visual range arena, but Pfeiffer says the Typhoon is the superior dogfighter. http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ut-373312/
Y otra fuente:
Analiza lo sabido sobre los Tifones alemanes en Red Flag 2-12. Sobre eso dice lo que ya he dicho: que el buen hacer del Tifón respecto al F-22 en dogfight significa mucho porque el Raptor es una bestia parda también en ese tipo de combate, lo que indica el buen hacer del europeo. Por supuesto, en BVR el Raptor barre. Y que esos eran Tifones alemanes, los peor equipados de los 4 socios (y los de RU los mejor), algo que ya sabíamos. Como ejemplos "gordos", los alemanes no tienen IRST Pirate, su DASS está a un nivel muy básico y sin señuelos remolcados ni LWR. Y no llevaron el visor de casco HEA Striker.
Luego si logran eso los peor equipados, ¿qué no lograrán los demás Tifones?
EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON BOON! THE LUFTWAFFE TAKE ON THE F-22 RAPTOR AT RED FLAG
by Hush Kit, July 2012
- According to the Col. Andreas Pfeiffer, commander of JG74 “Typhoon is a superior dogfighter” to the F-22 in within visual range combat.
- Typhoon can out-climb the F-22
- Typhoon can out-accelerate the F-22
The confident statements by Pfieffer are significant for two reasons:
1. The F-22 is the aircraft to beat
Of course the Raptor decimated the Typhoons at Beyond Visual Range, a domain where the F-22 is still peerless. But, the Raptor is also one of the very best close-in dogfighters, thanks partly to thrust vector control (TVC).
2. These were German Typhoons
Luftwaffe Typhoons (for the sake of clarity I will not refer to them as ‘Eurofighters’ as the Luftwaffe generally does) are the worst equipped of the partner nations (the RAF aircraft are the best). To put it simply, if the worst Typhoons can put up a decent fight against the F-22, what could the best Typhoons do?
http://hushkit.wordpress.com/2012/07/05 ... -red-flag/
Y otra fuente más:
Prior to the start of Red Flag, four Eurofighter Typhoons took part in exercise ‘Distant Frontier’ which was an opportunity for the American and German pilots to get to know each other and fly together before the start of Red Flag. The Typhoons flew 86 of the 88 planned sorties, mainly offensive counter-air (OCA). Major Marco Gumbrecht, Director of weapons and tactics with JG 74, said “We were testing the electronic warfare and DASS capabilities over the ranges”.
The Eurofighter Typhoons took part in eight 1v1 basic flight manoeuvre (BFM) sorties with the USAF’s F-22A Raptors. When asked how he felt flying with the American jets, Unit commander Colonel Andreas Pfeiffer, said:
‘Its unique capabilities are overwhelming from our first impressions in terms of modern air combat, but once you get to the merge, which is only a very small spectrum of air combat, in that area the Typhoon doesn’t have to fear the F-22’.http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/we ... 202012.pdf
Y otra fuente más de más: que el Typhoon es superior en WVR al Raptor. Cita la carencia por parte del F-22 de IRST, de visor de casco y aún de misiles off-boresight, y la menor capacidad de AMRAAM frente a Meteor:
Farnborough 2012: “Yesterday we had Raptor salad for lunch” Typhoon pilot said after dogfighting with the F-22 at Red Flag Alaska
July 13, 2012
In fact the last Red Flag-Alaska saw the first attendance by both the U.S. Air Force’s F-22 Raptors and German Air Force Eurofighter Typhoons.
As we have already reported, the Typhoons and the Raptor had the opportunity engage each other in dissimilar air combat training but only a part of the story about the outcome of the mock engagements has been reported so far: the one about the German commander saying that the F-22's capabilities are “overwhelming,” a statement that, according to Eurofighter sources, was taken out of context.
Indeed, Typhoon pilots at Farnborough said that,
when flying without their external fuel tanks, in the WVR (Within Visual Range) arena, the Eurofighter not only held its own, but proved to be better than the Raptor.Indeed, it looks like the F-22 tends to lose too much energy when using thust vectoring (TV): TV can be useful to enable a rapid direction change without losing sight of the adversary but, unless the Raptor can manage to immediately get in the proper position to score a kill, the energy it loses makes the then slow moving stealth combat plane quite vulnerable.
This would be coherent by analysis made in the past according to which the TV it’s not worth the energy cost unless the fighter is in the post stall regime, especially in
the era of High Off Bore Sight and Helmet Mounted Display (features that the F-22 lacks).Obviously, U.S. fighter pilots could argue that, flying a stealthy plane they will never need to engage an enemy in WVR dogfight, proving that, as already explained several times, kills and HUD captures scored during air combat training are not particularly interesting unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.
However, not all the modern and future scenarios envisage BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and the risk of coming to close range 1 vs 1 (or 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 etc) is still high, especially considered that
the F-22 uses AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles, whose maximum range is around 50 km (well below the Meteor missile used by the Typhoon).
Moreover, at that distance
the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22? a Eurofighter pilot said.Anyway, the Typhoons scored several Raptor kills during the Red Flag Alaska. On one day a German pilot, recounting a succesfull mission ironically commented: “yesterday, we have had a Raptor salad for lunch.”
http://theaviationist.com/2012/07/13/fi ... on-raptor/
Y también en
Jane's, y en
Combat AircraftMarcas de "derribos" de F-22 Raptor pintadas en Tifones alemanes, del ejercicio Distant Frontier previo a Red Flag, 8 ejercicios BFM 1vs1 a cañón (sin visor de casco):
http://theaviationist.com/2012/07/23/f- ... -markings/ http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2012 ... -07-12.jpghttp://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2012 ... -07-12.jpg 49) Un artículo sobre el ejercicio Distant Frontier que tuvo lugar en Alaska previamente al ejercicio Red Flag 2-12. En este caso, se trata del testimonio de un piloto polaco de F-16 participante. En polaco. Habla de la cooperación entre Vipers y Tifones:
Un día la fuerza azul (aliados) era un paquete (COMAO) de F-16 polacos junto a Tifones que tenían que defender una frontera imaginaria. La fuerza roja (enemigos) eran F-16 yanquis "agresores" simulando ser Su-30MKK (chinos) con misiles rusos R-27 (AA-10C y 10D). Ese día combatieron durante 35 minutos y los azules derribaron 9 Viper rojos de 10 enviados, mientras que los rojos lograron derribar 4 azules (2 Viper polacos y 2 Typhoon).
Otro día la fuerza azul eran 4 Viper polacos y 4 Tifones en misión OCA (ir a por cazas enemigos) escoltando a 2 Vipers polacos con misión AS (cada uno con cuatro GBU-38 JDAM). Los rojos eran de nuevo F-16 yanquis "agresores" simulando Su-30MKK está vez con misiles activos PL-12 chinos. Los azules lograron penetrar profundamente en territorio enemigo y atacar exitosamente sus blancos (se supone que derribarían muchos rojos, pero no dice nada).
http://lotniczapolska.pl/Europejska-koa ... asce,25065
50) Como ya sabíamos por un artículo de Hushkit, el DASS Praetorian del Tifón fue muy exitoso en Libia el año pasado:
Farnborough 2012: Selex looks to Asia for defence suite export
08 July 2012
Following the operational success of Selex Galileo’s Praetorian defensive aids suite aboard the Eurofighter Typhoon in Libya, the company is looking to take this and other systems to export.
Praetorian is now ‘operationally proven’ as a result of the operation
http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/digit ... -suite-ex/
51) Dos citas de distintas fuentes sobre velocidad del Typhoon:
The report [el resumen del informe de evaluación suiza] cites Eurofighter supercruise at Mach 1.4 without afterburners. This is a useful public data point, but seems to have been done without weapons. Eurofighters used armed supercruise during Libyan operations, but this was only possible with low-drag “4 + 2” air-to-air missile configurations, at high altitude, and to about Mach 1.2.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/swi ... -5s-04624/
Y un reportero de Flightglobal vuela en el simulador de cabina del Typhoon en Farnborough:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... e-eur.htmlQuedáos con esta frase:
So the Eurofighter is fast... very, very fast. It easily pushed out to around Mach 1.5 with a full weapons load and three tanks of gas.
52) En julio de 2010 Euroradar comenzó el desarrollo del AESA sin compromiso gubernamental. Y aprendiendo de la derrota en India, en julio de 2012 se anunció que se firmará la integración del AESA, de un DASS avanzado, del Meteor, de mayores capacidades AA y AS, y de mayor panoplia AS:
FARNBOROUGH: Eurofighter confirms enhancement programme
10/07/2012
... will see the Typhoon gain an active electronically scanned array radar, an advanced suite of defensive aids subsystem equipment and MBDA's Meteor beyond visual-range air-to-air missile. Also to be included is the "further development of the air-to-air and air-to-ground capabilities and integration of new weapons" to boost its multirole capabilities, with the latter to include Raytheon Systems' Paveway IV precision-guided bomb.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... me-374072/
53) Antiguo (de 2004 y 2005) pero curioso. Nunca ví los artículos completos en su día. En aquél entonces el jefe de la USAF, ahora retirado, Gen. John P. Jumper, dijo lo siguiente al comparar Raptor y Eurofighter (voló en ambos):
General John P. Jumper, Commander-inChief of the US Air Force, said after flying the Eurofighter that he was impressed with it. Right after his flight on the Eurofighter on 20 July 2004, Jumper said,
"I have flown all the air force jets. None was as good as the Eurofighter." In particular, Jumper praised the Eurofighter's agility, manoeuvrability, acceleration and precise navigation.
And recently the General praised the Eurofighter once again, in March 2005...
http://web.archive.org/web/200705061747 ... facts.html
Raptor, Eurofighter
complementaryPosted 3/22/2005
The Air Force chief of staff added to his 5,000-plus flying hours with familiarization flights in both the F/A-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter aircraft. Gen. John P. Jumper
said the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F/A-22 Raptor. He is the only person to have flown both aircraft.
...
Despite being designed for different missions,
the Eurofighter and the Raptor are equally high-tech aircraft....
He said he believes
the two aircraft are running neck-and-neck, but America must always be vigilant to ensure it stays on the cutting edge of aviation technology.
...
You can see the technology that is out there compared with ours," he said. "You see the avionics and all of the great progress that has been made. You make sure you are not too complacent, because
the technology that they have is very competitive with technology that we have.http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123010102
54) Sobre el radar Captor de los Tifones austríacos, en 2012:
Y un detalle sobre el Tifón, de un artículo sobre la última vez (2012) en que los austríacos han apoyado la protección del espacio aéreo suizo con ocasión de la reunión del World Economic Forum en Davos:
Gracias al potente radar CAPTOR, los Tifones también son usados para monitorizar el espacio aéreo (mini-AWACs) complementando los radares terrestres. Y gracias a su gran capacidad de búsqueda-hacia-abajo (look-down), el CAPTOR puede rastrear incluso los más profundos valles de los Alpes.
Fuentes:
http://www.doppeladler.com/da/oebh/5-ja ... r-typhoon/http://www.doppeladler.com/da/oebh/daedalus-2012/
55) Sobre capacidad de reconocimiento del Tifón con Litening 3 (fuente: sobre Libia 2011:
http://www.baesystems.com/download/BAES ... n-the-road )
is a high-end air-to-surface platform with phenomenal reconnaissance capability.
[...]
He also rated the performance of the Litening 3 pod to be excellent and confirmed its ability, saying: “It allowed us to collect high-quality reconnaissance imagery and BDA [battle damage assessment] of where we had been which allowed NATO to rebut any pro-regime evidence that we had bombed the wrong place.
“Importantly it gave us the resolution and the ability to look into one of the most confusing battle spaces ever seen. Litening allowed us to get in very close, at a safe altitude, and look for behaviour to see and prove which people were pro-Gadaffi forces.”
[...]
Like its Tornado playmate, Typhoon offered very good non-kinetic affect and combat ISTAR capability, which fed into the analysis systems used by the RAF’s Tactical Imagery Wing. Intelligence and battle damage assessment were provided by Typhoons throughout Operation Ellamy.
[...]
The RAF’s has also used the pod on deployed operations for ISTAR (intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance), not least since the UK’s version can record still imagery.
Its integration on Typhoon incorporates a ROVER 3 (remotely-operated videoenhanced receiver) air-to-surface secure full-motion video data link [...] ROVER also provides a limited real-time reconnaissance capability.
[...]
“During Ellamy we actually added another screen [a las de la cabina], a computer tablet that we lay on our legs. It’s GPS-equipped and uploads imagery of targets already hit in the area of operations.” This allowed the pilot to look at the latest imagery and check if the target had been hit before.
Y a continuación (puntos 56 y 57) dos detalles del especial del año 2008 de Air International dedicado al desarrollo y servicio operativo del Tifón:
http://es.scribd.com/doc/104158968/Lake ... Supplement 56) Sobre prestaciones comparadas con anteriores (F-15, F-16, F-18, F-14, Mig-29). El caza de referencia por excelencia es el F-15 y el salto que dió del Lightning a él fue equivalente al que dió al pasar del F-15 al Tifón. Es difícil apreciar diferencias entre los cazas citados, y sin embargo en cuanto vuelas en el Tifón notas la diferencia.
Imagen:
http://i48.tinypic.com/2upbbyr.jpg 57) Sobre la cabina y el MMI, a pesar de ser algo subjetivo, también hay índices objetivos para valorarlo. Y según esos, el interfaz hombre-máquina del Tifón es el mejor de entre todos sus contemporáneos.
También se mide objetivamente por la cantidad de formación previa necesaria para dominar el MMI. Y en el caso del Tifón, basta tan sólo con 1 clase teórica muy básica y 3 sesiones de simulador para que el piloto esté más que cómodo en la cabina real.
Imagen:
http://i49.tinypic.com/34dhcsh.jpgPor cierto, aunque dos cabinas se parezcan, el MMI no es igual. Comparar MMI por su apariencia externa es como comparar dos bibliotecas por la forma de las estanterías y no por cómo están clasificados los libros que es lo importante. Dos cabinas semejantes pueden tener MMI totalmente diferentes dependiendo de muchas cosas que no se "ven". Aparte, el Typhoon es el primer caza con DVI y equipo anti-G completo.
58) Dos comentarios más de noviembre 2012 sobre el comportamiento AA del Tifón frente a otros cazas:
I've had a busy Autumn, Typhoon-wise, having spoken to lots of interesting people [...]
As to recent Typhoon air-to-air combat/training, the overview seems to be that the Typhoon aircrew community do not currently seem to view any other aircraft as being a threat that is in any way too hard for them to handle - except perhaps the F-22. That's not to say that you don't have to fight threat aircraft in ways that play to your strengths and not their strengths (and that if you fail to do that you can of course come a cropper). Those aircraft with better low speed/high Alpha handling (and the F/A-18C/D is king of that hill) aren't seen as a particular threat, as none can exploit the vertical in the way that Typhoon, and since the ultra-low speed stuff kills energy and "just turns you into a strafe panel". There were some very interesting specific comments about particular aircraft, and I just know that the Rafale fans will hate them when they get to read them...
Jon Lake
http://typhoon.starstreak.net/forum/vie ... f=1&t=2110Typhoon vs Rafale will have to wait for a bit, but is much less interesting than I used to think, as no Typhoon aircrew I've spoken to recently rate Rafale as being a particularly difficult opponent, and my three most recent Rafale pilot interviewees (all this month [november]) were pretty downbeat on that subject. It's a great jet though
jon lake
http://typhoon.starstreak.net/forum/vie ... 0&start=20
Citas frases cosas oraciones afirmaciones declaraciones información fuentes positivas postiva buenas buena ventajas sobre el del Tifón Typhoon Eurofighter beneficiosas beneficios 59) Ver mi mensaje en este tema del Mié Nov 21, 2012 2:02 pm (pag. 235 del tema)
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