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Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Mar Jul 17, 2018 12:32 pm
por Orel
El híbrido entre F-22/35 propuesto para Japón parece que saldría más caro de lo esperado...
más de $178 millones la unidad... esta propuesta es la más cara de las tres. Recordemos que las otras dos son la de BAE basándose en tecnología del Eurofighter y la de Boeing haciendo lo propio con la del F-15.

Justo venía a ponerlo.

Poli en el tema de cazas de sexta generación escribió:Lo veremos. Hasta entonces, es lo que hay

Y lo que hay es que quieren que participen más países.

Poli en el tema de cazas de sexta generación escribió:Y habida cuenta de nuestros inventorios europeos, el proyecto es una defensa de airbus, no una respuesta a las necesidades presentes o previsibles.

Según eso, ningún caza ha sido realmente necesario nunca. Al contrario: precisamente debido a los exiguos inventarios europeos, se necesitan aviones que cada vez provean de más capacidad siendo menos cantidad.

Y otras noticias:
:arrow: Más sobre el Tempest inglés (corregido):
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-450327/

:arrow: Hablando de qué pasaría con Suecia, si podría unirse al FCAS inglés... Saab dice que está abierta a colaboraciones pero si incluye tecnología del Gripen E:
http://www.janes.com/article/81766/farn ... from_rss=1

:arrow: E Indonesia crea una ley para impulsar la colaboración con Corea del Sur en el KFX/IFX:
http://www.janes.com/article/81721/indo ... from_rss=1

Saludos

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Mié Jul 18, 2018 11:49 am
por Orel
Otra "pata", otro elemento clave del FCAS (sistema de combate aéreo futuro) de Airbus: la NFTS (Network for the Sky).
Una nueva red global de comunicaciones militares aéreas seguras, que espera estar operativa en 2020 y que integra: satélites geoestacionarios en órbitas medias y bajas, enlaces tácticos aire-tierra, tierra-aire y aire-aire, enlaces de voz, células de comunicación móvil 5G y conexiones láser.
Son varios de los campos en que también se hacen nuevos desarrollos, no sólo aeronaves.
https://www.infodefensa.com/mundo/2018/ ... ucion.html
A lo que se suma el SmartForce: http://www.janes.com/article/81817/farn ... smartforce

Y EAU ya tiene contratistas para modernizar sus F-16E Block 60:
http://alert5.com/2018/07/18/bae-system ... e-program/

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Jue Jul 19, 2018 8:12 am
por Orel
:arrow: Boeing quiere ofrecer al Pentágono el F-15X, capaz de llevar 24 AMRAAM (el tope en su última versión eran 16). Claramente sirviendo de "camión de misiles" para la quinta gen., aumentando el número de ataques posibles frente a enemigos numerosos como China o Rusia en esta época de flotas decrecientes:
http://alert5.com/2018/07/19/boeing-wan ... -missiles/

Un saludo

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Vie Jul 27, 2018 9:40 am
por poliorcetes
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22 ... nt-fighter

Tyler RogowayView Tyler Rogoway's Articles
twitter.com/Aviation_Intel

Last week, the aerospace-defense community was overwhelmingly intrigued by a report from Defenseone.com that said Boeing was pitching a new variant of its 45-year-old F-15 Eagle line of fighters to the United States Air Force. Still, next to nothing is known about this initiative, including where it came from and what it entails exactly. Although it has been framed as a Boeing solicitation to the USAF, the opposite is actually true—the USAF began the discussion over a year and a half ago. Since then, ongoing talks have been kept incredibly hush-hush, along with the details of the aircraft involved—until now.
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According to sources familiar with the discussions, The War Zone has learned about the F-15X's origins, its intended capabilities and features, and where it would fit inside the USAF's tactical airpower ecosystem.
Tyler Rogoway/Author

F-15Cs execute a mock alert scramble.
USAF Looks Back To The Future

The F-15X came out of a quiet USAF inquiry to Boeing and Lockheed Martin about fielding an aircraft that could seamlessly plug into their existing air combat infrastructure as part of better-defined high-low capability mix strategy—one intended to specifically help counter the service's shrinking force structure.

The airframe would have to be cost-effective both in terms of operation and acquisition, very low-risk, and most of all, it would need to be non-disruptive to the larger F-35 procurement initiative. If anything else, it had to be seen as complementary to the F-35, not as an alternative to it.
USAF

The USAF has not procured a 4th generation fighter since 2001. This was over 15 years before the discussions that led to the F-15X began. For a decade and a half, USAF brass had been adamant about only buying stealthy 5th generation fighters to fill out its tactical jet ranks. Even upgrading or retaining existing and battle-proven fighter platforms was in question early in the current decade as the service was myopically focused on stabilizing the F-35 program. Tightened defense budgets under sequester didn't help with the situation, either.

As time moved on, it became clear that the F-35 might not be the USAF's one-size-fits-all solution some thought it would be. This is not a mark against the F-35, but just the reality that the USAF has tactical air power needs that don't necessitate or even benefit from the F-35's unique and costly capabilities.
USAF

The last F-16 delivered to the USAF was contracted in 2001. A handful of F-15Es was also ordered that year to replace lost aircraft. They were the last 4th generation fighters the USAF has bought.

So the F-15X initiative is not some cold-call Boeing pitch, it was born out of hundreds of ever-strengthening discussions between various stakeholders within USAF and the aircraft manufacturer. All parties involved had worked hard not to disclose the talks out of respect for ongoing procurement programs and the USAF's stated needs. Additionally, doing so without providing adequate detail would surely result in the F-15X being misconstrued by the press as being some huge challenger to the F-35, when that was never actually the case or the scope of the proposed initiative.
The F-15X Concept Is Born

The result of those discussions is the F-15X. Our sources describe the aircraft as a single seat variant of the latest F-15 advanced Strike Eagle derivative—the F-15QA destined for Qatar—but it will also integrate many of the features and upgrades that the USAF intends (or intended as it may be) to include on its nearly four-decade-old F-15C/D fleet. And no, the aircraft is not a repackaging of the semi-stealthy F-15 Silent Eagle concept that Boeing floated nearly a decade ago. The F-15X features no low-observable enhancements of any kind.
Boeing rendering

F-15X is an outgrowth of the latest export Strike Eagle derivatives and the upgrade pathway the USAF has devised for its decades-old F-15C/D fleet. It also draws on past concepts like the2040C F-15 configuration seen in this image and in the banner image at the top of this article.

The F-15X configuration is impressive as it includes a flat-panel glass cockpit, JHMCS II helmet mounted display (HMD), revised internal wing structure, fly-by-wire controls, APG-82 AESA radar, activation of outer wing stations one and nine, advanced mission computer, low-profile heads-up display, updated radio and satellite communications, the highly advanced Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System (EPAWSS) electronic warfare and electronic surveillance suite, Legion Pod-mounted infrared search and track system (IRST) and the list goes on.

With the help of the company's new AMBER missile carrying racks, the F-15X will be able to carry a whopping 22 air-to-air missiles during a single sortie. Alternatively, it could fly with eight air-to-air missiles and 28 Small Diameter Bombs (SDBs), or up to seven 2,000lb bombs and eight air-to-air missiles. We are talking crazy weapons hauling capabilities here. Keep in mind that the F-15C/D Eagle can carry eight air-to-air missiles currently, and the penultimate Eagle variant that is currently being built, the F-15SA, can carry a dozen.

What the F-15X doesn't include is a high price. The War Zone has learned that Boeing intends to deliver the F-15X at a flyaway cost well below that of an F-35A—which runs about $95M per copy. And this is not just some attempt to grab business and then deliver an aircraft that costs way more than promised. Our sources tell us that Boeing is willing to put their money where their mouth is via offering the F-15X under a fixed priced contract. In other words, whatever the jets actually end up costing, the Pentagon will pay a fixed price—Boeing would have to eat any overages.

This is possible because the F-15 is a very known commodity as it has been in production for 45 years and has flown hundreds of thousands of hours in continuously more capable configurations. Additionally, foreign customers have paid for the jet's advanced development already, with around $5B already spent by international operations on evolving the aircraft over the last decade and a half.
Tyler Rogoway/Author

A South Korean F-15K Slam Eagle departs on a Red Flag sortie.

Boeing is also likely apt to make the Pentagon a heck of a deal on the F-15X as it will help ensure fighter production at the company's storied St. Louis plant for years to come and it would keep the door open for additional foreign Eagle orders. It would also provide an ongoing tactical aircraft production relationship with the USAF. This relationship could also be sustained via the T-X contract that aims to replace the USAF's half-century-old T-38 Talon jet trainers, but who exactly will win that contract remains a question mark as the award isn't slated to arrive until late this Summer at the earliest.
Trading In The Old For The New

The biggest question most have about the F-15X is where would these fighters be inserted into the USAF's existing force structure? The answer to that, and the whole impetus behind the F-15X program, has been made clear to us—the jet is intended t directly replace the USAF's entire F-15C/D fleet. It would have no impact on the existing F-15E Strike Eagle fleet or its planned upgrade pathway that is underway now.

Currently, the F-15C/D force is largely arrayed along America's maritime borders, with five Air National Guard units flying the type. A squadron at RAF Lakenheath in England and two squadrons at Kadena Air Base in Japan round out the full front-line force. A small number of F-15C/Ds are also assigned to test, evaluation, and tactics development units, and a single schoolhouse based at Kingsley Field in Oregon provides "Eagle Drivers" to the fleet on roughly 235 'air superiority Eagles' in all.
Tyler Rogoway/Author

A 173rd Fighter Wing F-15C taxis back to its parking spot at Kingsley Field in Klamath Falls, known inside the USAF as the "the land of no slack." The unit is the USAF sole F-15C/D training squadron and is renowned for producing some of the world's best fighter pilots.

The fate of the F-15C/D within the USAF ranks has been in doubt for over a year now, with the USAF evaluating if it will continue to deeply upgrade and eventually basically rebuild its existing decades-old F-15C/D force or if it will replace them entirely with upgraded F-16s. In fact, just last May, reports surfaced that indicated the USAF had all but formally announced that they will draw-down and retire the F-15C/D fleet.

Swapping F-15s for F-16s means a capability deficit in almost every regard. Even if the USAF wants to do this it will likely result in a major dogfight on Capitol Hill. But replacing the old F-15C/D fleet with drastically enhanced F-15s could alleviate this major stumbling block and prove to be a much more attractive option.
Tyler Rogoway/Author

The USAF's F-15E fleet would not be unaffected by the F-15X plan.

Even if the F-15X is cheaper than an F-35 and ends up being closer in price to a late-block Super Hornet (around $65M), the money will have to come from somewhere to acquire the fleet. But spending money now to acquire F-15Xs may actually save money in the long run. The USAF already intended to upgrade its F-15C/D fleet so that it could remain viable into the 2030s and possibly well beyond. Doing so would cost many millions of dollars per jet, especially if those aircraft end up needing new wings in the coming decade, which according to most accounts, they will. And then you still have an airplane that is in the back-half of its service life and costs more to keep in the air than a totally fresh jet.

The F-15X will have a 20,000 hour service life. Yes, you read that right, 20,000 hours—pretty much three times that of most fighters being produced around the globe. As such, a new F-15X can serve for roughly 80 years. When you spread the cost of the jet over all that flight time, it does appear to be a comparative bargain.
Boeing

Boeing had marketed a version of the F-15SA as the F-15 Advanced, but the single seat F-15X will incorporate many of the latest export Eagle capabilities along with the upgrades that were intended for the USAF's aging F-15C/D fleet.

In addition, our sources tell us that F-15X cost-per-flight-hour has been deeply investigated both by Boeing and by third parties by leveraging metrics from legacy F-15 operations and those of late-model Strike Eagle derivatives and even other fighters in the USAF's inventory. The final figure is said to be around $27,000 per flight hour. This is far less than the aging F-15C/D's hourly operating cost (about $42,000 per hour) and about $6,000 more than what the USAF is paying to fly their largely middle-aged F-16 fleet today.

Compared to the F-22 or F-35 this figure is very attractive as well. Apparently, it also takes into account a single-seat, multi-role mission set similar to an F-16 and the manning demands associated with it, not just an air superiority role. And once again, because the F-15 is a known commodity, this number is not some optimistic guess.

With all this in mind, the business case for the F-15X is that the jets will pay for themselves in about a decade's time based on operational cost savings over their F-15C/D brethren—the last of which was built in 1986—alone.
The Seamless Integration And Plenty Of Production Capacity

It's also worth noting that the cost of an aircraft's development—which in this case is nothing—and its 'flyaway price' tell just part of the fiscal story. New logistics chains, centralized sustainment facilities, training squadrons, the unique infrastructure required at every base a new fighter is stationed, program offices, operational test and tactics development, weapons integration, and so on are all extremely expensive but seldom discussed aspects of introducing a new fighter aircraft. The F-15X is specifically configured to require none of this.

It slots directly into the USAF's existing Eagle infrastructure down to the using the same ground support equipment as its F-15C/D and F-15E predecessors. Even pilot training is said to be seamless, with it supposedly taking just single sortie, a bit of class work, and a couple simulator hops to convert an existing Eagle pilot over to an advanced Strike Eagle derivative. It is truly a plug-and-play concept above all else.
Tyler Rogoway/Author

The flight-line of the 142nd Fighter Wing. The F-15X will be able to leverage the F-15C and F-15E's infrastructure.

The F-15X could also allow current F-15C/D units to migrate to multi-role mission sets instead of the strictly air-to-air mission that they have traditionally performed. The F-15QA will be capable of deploying close to every weapon in the Pentagon's tactical fighter weapons inventory and so will the F-15X. This includes weapons like JSOW, Harpoon, and even HARM. But once again, taking on new missions can be done selectively and F-15C/D units could just as well continue concentrating on air-to-air combat exclusively.

Yet even a suppression/destruction of enemy air defenses (SEAD/DEAD) role that leverages the F-15X's powerful electronic warfare and electronic surveillance measures suites, along with new weapons like JSOW and HARM, would fold nicely into the 'Gray Eagle' community's counter-air role.

As for how quickly the USAF could obtain F-15Xs to replace its F-15C/D fleet, that is really up to the USAF. It is known that the F-15 production line is quite elastic and could scale up to dozens of jets a year if the demand was there. Currently, Saudi Arabia's Eagles are being built and/or refurbished into the F-15SA configuration and soon the first of Qatar's 36 F-15QAs will begin production. It is likely that Qatar will also execute an option for another 36 Eagles as well.

Another order for F-15s from Israel is more likely to occur than not at this point, and other prospects for export remain, from Europe to Asia. But getting the USAF back on the pages of the Eagle's order books would be a huge coup for the program and it alone could very well lead to additional foreign orders.
The Heavyweight Of Tactical Aerial Weapons Platforms

The F-15X initiative may be all about getting already available capabilities to the USAF at a low cost with next to no fuss, but in the future, the jet could play a pivotal role in supporting many of the most buzz-worthy air combat concepts being discussed by USAF today. These include man-machine teaming, in which the F-15X would play quarterback for stealthy unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAVs) that can go where even the F-35 and F-22 cannot.

The F-15X could also act as a weapons truck for stealthy fighters operating forward of their position into more highly contested airspace. This will become an especially critical capacity as ultra-long-range weaponry becomes too large for stealth fighters' weapons bays or to be carried in relevant numbers by smaller fighters.

In the decades to come, it's very likely that standoff tactical jamming support will be necessary to ensure the survivability of America's current cadre of narrow-band low-observable fighters. The E/A-18G Growler provides this to a certain degree today, but additional capability organic to the USAF could come via F-15Xs outfitted with jamming pods or conformal jamming arrays installed in modified conformal fuel tanks/fast packs. This mission could benefit from the F-15's long-endurance as well.
Public Domain

Fast Packs were originally envisioned back in the 1970s as having many more uses than carrying additional fuel. This adaptability is still a largely untapped resource for the Eagle family, especially in an age of conformal arrays and increasingly miniaturized sensor and even directed energy systems.

Directed energy weapons—namely lasers—and large surveillance sensors, and even outsized anti-ballistic missile weaponry, would be at home on the F-15X more so than virtually any other fighter. The jet's legendary ability to lug large payloads over long distances to execute standoff attacks could also be very beneficial, especially considering how vulnerable tanker aircraft are increasingly becoming—a problem that is only slated to get worse in the future. A fighter with a larger combat radius that can carry more weapons to hit more targets than its stablemates equates to enhanced survivability for tankers that support them and less dependence on them in general.
An Eagle Encore's Feasibility

As far as how serious the USAF is about actually acquiring the F-15X as an F-15C/D replacement, sources familiar with the ongoing discussions indicate that the service is very serious about it. And frankly, the powers that be need to make a decision about the F-15C/D's fate as spending billions upgrading the fleet just to retire it from service in a few years time makes no sense and is incredibly wasteful.

Above all else, the reality that the F-15X concept is actually a thing, and has been in the works for the better part of two years no less, is a promising indication that the USAF is coming to terms with the need to field a diverse mix of tactical fast-jet capabilities, with each platform bringing something special to the table. An all stealth force sounds good, but in reality, it is fiscally unsustainable and not beneficial, and even a hindrance, to many of the missions the USAF conducts on a daily basis and will continue to do so for decades to come. The Eagle's (old or new) heavy lifting and long endurance capabilities alone are somewhat indispensable in regards to where the future of air combat is headed.
NASA

The F-15 is the heavy lifter of the USAF's fighter cadre. It has been used to launch anti-satellite weapons and for tests with outsized missiles, including the AIM-54 hypersonic test missile as seen above. There have even been concepts that envisioned the F-15 carrying Patriot missiles aloft for anti-ballistic missile duties.

In the end, when it comes to the USAF's tactical airpower needs, it needs to invest in narrow-band low-observable fighters, deep-penetrating wide-band low-observable UCAVs, and non-stealthy fighters that can lug a lot of weaponry over a good distance and/or provide economical solutions for the USAF's 'bread and butter' fighter missions. You don't need an F-35 to take out a Taliban opium lab or to sit alert duty day in and day out to guard America's sovereign airspace.
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And this is what the F-15X is all about. It's a non-risk, relevant, and supposedly cost-effective solution to a lot of the USAF problems. And once again, it is not meant to compete in a big way with the F-35 program.

The recent precedent of the U.S. Navy placing substantial advanced Super Hornet orders—which can be at least partially attributed to the Trump administration's intent to spread the wealth around when it comes to Pentagon fighter procurement and its overall push for a larger defense budget—also gives additional credence to the F-15X concept.
Boeing

Block III Super Hornet

In the case of the recent advanced Super Hornet's orders from the Navy, it's not as if the service canceled the F-35C—which will attain initial operating capability next year. It just came to terms with the fact that buying more Super Hornets now alleviates risks that have manifested themselves in the F-35 program and above all else, doing so relieves pressure on the Navy's buckling fighter fleet.

The act also helped out with alleviating USMC's own fighter woes as it allows for younger Navy F/A-18Cs to be transferred to the USMC, many of which will receive substantial upgrades of their own. And enhanced Super Hornets and F-35Cs will complement each other nicely on many levels for decades to come. In other words, both fighters can coexist in production. It doesn't have to be an 'all or nothing' proposition as so many have tried to instill over the last decade or so.

As to whether or not the USAF should actually move forward and procure the F-15X as a direct F-15C/D replacement, we'll save our analysis for an upcoming post. But the concept is certainly enticing and it is more relevant now that it would have been a decade ago when the USAF saw stealth as a threshold qualifier for nearly all front-line future fighter operations.

We will keep you in the loop as we learn more about the F-15X and its potentially bright future within the ranks of the USAF.


Si prospera, los resultados van a ser revolucionarios para el F-35... demostrarían que es un aparato "del primer día", no el caballo de batalla para todo que se pretendía

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Vie Jul 27, 2018 2:33 pm
por Orel
Si prospera, los resultados van a ser revolucionarios para el F-35... demostrarían que es un aparato "del primer día", no el caballo de batalla para todo que se pretendía

Ya puse la noticia sobre el F-15X. Sobre lo demás, se verá, pero es muy hipotético y de momento ese tipo de análisis no han acertado. La USAF estira lo previo (F-16C y F-15C/E, sin adquirir nuevos), pero es para completar a los quintas y no como competidor suyo, como bien recuerdan el quinto párrafo y uno de los últimos:
"If anything else, it had to be seen as complementary to the F-35, not as an alternative to it."
"And once again, it is not meant to compete in a big way with the F-35 program."
Es decir, sea lo que sea, no les quita la idea de que el F-35 sea caballo de batalla general.
Por cierto, ese "X" aún no existe, no se sabe qué tal saldría ni lo que costaría su ciclo de vida. No lo digo en contra del Eagle -que me encanta- pero hay que ver los mismos defectos que vemos en los demás.

Y esto es de broma:
What the F-15X doesn't include is a high price. The War Zone has learned that Boeing intends to deliver the F-15X at a flyaway cost well below that of an F-35A—which runs about $95M per copy.

Sólo faltaba que en 2018, la décimoquinta versión de un caza de los '60, fuese a costar lo mismo que un F-35 de los '90, diseño tres décadas posterior.

:arrow: Aprovecho para lanzar la pregunta que he hecho otras veces pero con pocas respuestas: ¿por qué creéis que hoy día no se diseñan "nuevos cuartas"? Serían más baratos de adquirir y de operar que los quintas, y los complementarían. Pero vemos que, una vez avanzada una generación, no se diseñan cazas de la previa. Ah, y no me vale con el simple: "es una conspiración de la industria militar para ganar más". :wink:
Un ejemplo de respuesta: porque hay gran cantidad de cuartas que actualizados aún sirven durante tiempo. OK, pero se queda corta porque no aguantarán tanto como los quintas. Es decir, si ahora sacas un nuevo cuarta, durará más que uno con 25 años ya en sus cuadernas modernizado. Pero no se hace.

:arrow: Aparte, para su concurso Canadá pregunta por el sostenimiento de la flota:
Canada asks fighter bidders for sustainment information

Sustainment practices among the six potential bidders vary widely. Lockheed Martin’s F-35A, for example, consolidates sustainment planning and support in a central hub, feeding data and parts to several regional depots stationed among the global partners. Other potential bidders, including the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen, offer services ranging from turn-key maintenance support to varying levels of direct and indirect support.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... at-450707/

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Vie Jul 27, 2018 9:53 pm
por Roberto Montesa
No entiendo la pregunta, para que diseñar un F16 si ya lo tienes diseñado? evidentemente sus equipos electronicos han evolucionado, e incluso se mejoran los motores, pero la célula de un cuarta no va a mejorar la de otro cuarta conceptualmente similar, y en el caso de bimotor de mayor peso y alcance en USA tienen hasta dos para elegir.

Carece de sentido diseñar un nuevo cuarta, al menos en EEUU, que pudiera competir pongamos por caso con los Tifón o Rafale, cuando estan metidos en otro programa en curso diseñado con otros requerimientos. Primero porque se han considerado que son los necesarios, y no los anteriores, segundo porque la economia no lo soporta, y tercero porque la mejora del cuarta respecto a lo que tienen no compensa, el quinta si, claro... otra cuestion es que no sea lo mas adecuado tener el 100% de tu FA dotada con él (dilema que enfrentan japon, israel y alguno mas, pero no EEUU).

Yo lanzo otra pregunta, si el nivel tecnologico de los quinta se consigue a costa de unos costes de operacion muy elevados, por que gastar en otro nuevo avion para bajarlos ? no se te va el beneficio en el I+D y la implantacion del sistema (logistica) ? no es lo mas logico 'seguir' con evos de lo que ya tienes aunque no compitan con los 4++ de otros?

Y otra pregunta, la tonteria de diseñar un cuarta cuando operabas ya uno magnifico no es lo que hizo España? Todavia Francia tenia un tercera refriteado mas malo que el pellejo de cabra, vale... pero nosotros no necesitabamos 'canards' para nada, seguir la senda de la NAVY con 'mas de lo mismo pero mejor' era suficiente.

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Sab Jul 28, 2018 9:02 am
por Orel
No entiendo la pregunta

Quería abrir debate. Pero era retórica, he sido malo :mrgreen: La respuesta que quería daros es simple: Una vez avanzado en una generación, no se diseñan cazas de generación anterior porque las fuerzas aéreas no lo piden. Y son las que más saben y los van a usar.

Y otra pregunta, la tonteria de diseñar un cuarta cuando operabas ya uno magnifico no es lo que hizo España? Todavia Francia tenia un tercera refriteado mas malo que el pellejo de cabra, vale... pero nosotros no necesitabamos 'canards' para nada, seguir la senda de la NAVY con 'mas de lo mismo pero mejor' era suficiente.

No es un caso comparable, primero porque no son dos diseños de aquí y segundo porque aquí sí fue un salto. Nosotros no participamos en el diseño del F-18. El Bizcocho es un gran caza, hizo avanzar nuestro know-how aunque sobretodo en desarrollo de softwares. Que es muy importante, pero el EFA fue un salto mayor y sobretodo global. En él participamos en todas las fases, desde diseño, y en todos los campos, además de software, motores, aviónica, materiales... y aprendemos de todos ellos un montón. Y dado que el EFA rozaba ya la quinta, nos metió de lleno en tecnologías/doctrinas de quinta como p.ej. la guerra en red, el interfaz hombre-máquina avanzado, el manejo despreocupado y la fusión de sensores, que son claves hoy día.
Lo dicho: no es comparable. Comprar un caza magnífico y hacer un caza magnífico fue inteligente. Y creo que debe seguirse esa doble línea (Hornet por F-35 y EFA por FCAS) si queremos tener cierto nivel de autonomía.

:arrow: Algo más sobre lo que ya sabíamos del concurso del USMC para ponerle AESA al Hornet legacy, pero añade información que me sorprende, la frase final:
A two-way competition has started to fill a sudden requirement to replace mechanically-scanned Raytheon APG-73 radars on seven squadrons of US Marine Corps Boeing F/A-18C/Ds...
...For almost a decade, Raytheon has pursued the APG-73 replacement for Marines’ F/A-18C/Ds, but the service’s support for the plan has fluctuated over the years. The company performed a similar fit check in 2010 on an F/A-18 with a radar previously designated as APG-79(VX). The company proposed it again in 2014, but the USMC’s interest evaporated. The APG-73 replacement did not appear in the official 2018 Marine Aviation Plan, a long-term acquisition strategy released by the USMC late last year. But the Marines released a request for information for the APG-73 replacement in March. The service now plans to modify 88 F/A-18C/Ds with an AESA radar, starting in the fourth quarter of 2020 and ending in 2022. Despite the newly-funded upgrade, Marines still expect to retire the F/A-18C/D fleet around 2030.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... up-450739/

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Sab Jul 28, 2018 2:57 pm
por poliorcetes
Diseñar "nuevos cuartas" es absurdo, porque todo lo que se diseñe como cazabombardero de primera línea incorporará el máximo posible de avances recientes y, por definición, será al menos un quinta :)

Ahora bien, diseños ya evolucionados y probados pueden seguir fabricándose. Y ése es el meollo de la cuestión: encontrarse con que los quintas y sus funcionalidades (y costos asociados de mantenimiento y operación) no son necesarios y sí ineficientes para un rango de misiones. No digo que sean "aparatos para el primer día de guerra" como llegan a decir los críticos, pero es evidente que, si para COIN emplear un cazabombardero de 4a es absurdo, un 5a mucho más.

Así ha salido, por ejemplo, el último "concurso" entre el A-10 y el gordito: con el A-10 con una mano atada a la espalda y 1/3 de su capacidad de munición, para que la cosa no fuera escandalosa.

Lo gordo del 15X y de la compra de nuevos 15S de Israel es que son aviones nuevos (no diseños nuevos), y que, si se adquieren, es porque se estima que sus capacidades y costes son más apropiados para un rango de misiones que iban a ser para el avión único.

Me mantengo en mis trece: estamos en un momento dreadnought. Quien antes se baje del barco (ja, ja, chiste), antes invertirá en lo que sí va a marcar la diferencia. ¿En qué? Al menos, en drones más avanzados y más autónomos, y posiblemente en sistemas altamente distribuidos que venzan por saturación

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Sab Jul 28, 2018 9:50 pm
por Roberto Montesa
No te extrañe, ya cuando hablamos de mejorar los nuestros con otra MLU te dije que 10 años es razonable para considerarla amortizada.

y 'no entiendo la pregunta' también era retórico, osea... que la respuesta era obvia. :a5

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Dom Jul 29, 2018 9:24 am
por alejandro_
Y dado que el EFA rozaba ya la quinta, nos metió de lleno en tecnologías/doctrinas de quinta como p.ej. la guerra en red, el interfaz hombre-máquina avanzado, el manejo despreocupado y la fusión de sensores, que son claves hoy día.


Cualquier día el EF-2000 va a rozar la sexta... veamos los EF-2000 del EdA:

Radar: Todos ellos con un modelo mecánico ¿Existe algún caza de 5° o que roce la 5° equipado con uno?

En cualquier caso, este modelo se basa en el Blue Vixen del Sea Harrier. España e Italia apoyaron este modelo frente a Alemania, que prefería el MSD2000, basado en el AN/APG-65, que por aquel entonces era utilizado en los Phantom. Como estos países se involucraron en el diseño me gustaría saberlo, porque el diseño -como los principales sistemas del avión- son británicos.

Fusión de sensores: Según la evaluación suiza, por detrás del Rafale y aspecto a mejorar. El cómo roza la 5° no tengo ni idea.

Guerra en red: Cualquier caza de 4° puede recibir el sistema Link-16.

Ahora que se va a colaborar en un nuevo caza se está teniendo en cuenta las lecciones del EF-2000 para evitar los retrasos y sobrecostes, pero bueno, para España es el negocio del siglo, un chollo.

No entiendo la pregunta, para que diseñar un F16 si ya lo tienes diseñado?


Además habría que repartir el coste del desarrollo sobre los ejemplares producidos, lo que le haría menos competitivo. A ver quien se pone a diseñar un equivalente al F-16 cuando EEUU te ofrece uno con lo último en tecnología y un paquete de armas.

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Dom Jul 29, 2018 9:43 am
por Roberto Montesa
alejandro_ escribió: A ver quien se pone a diseñar un equivalente al F-16 cuando EEUU te ofrece uno con lo último en tecnología y un paquete de armas.


Japón, pero no aprendemos de los errores ajenos....

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Dom Jul 29, 2018 9:45 am
por Roberto Montesa
alejandro_ escribió:

Cualquier día el EF-2000 va a rozar la sexta...


o la séptima, me parece ridiculo, la verdad.

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Dom Jul 29, 2018 10:39 am
por Orel
Radar: Todos ellos con un modelo mecánico ¿Existe algún caza de 5° o que roce la 5° equipado con uno?
...Como estos países se involucraron en el diseño me gustaría saberlo, porque el diseño -como los principales sistemas del avión- son británicos.

Con el radar va con retraso, también por sus razones. España participa tanto en el -M como en el -E.

Fusión de sensores: Según la evaluación suiza, por detrás del Rafale y aspecto a mejorar. El cómo roza la 5° no tengo ni idea.

Hace diez años. Aspecto que igualmente hace años ya mejoró y sige haciéndolo continuamente, como has podido saber. En cualquier caso su fusión, como la del Rafale, eran las mayores de la cuarta con diferencia, sólo por detrás de la del F-22 y hasta la llegada del F-35 y súper-modernizaciones de Teens. Lo que dije tenía por tanto toda la razón.

Guerra en red: Cualquier caza de 4° puede recibir el sistema Link-16.

Eso es una simplificación extrema. Es bastante más, eso sólo es el medio de comunicación, pero luego está la manera en que cada uno aprovecha esa capacidad, el software detrás, las presentaciones, etc. Es como decir que por tener APG-65 haces lo mismo, seas un Harrier+ o un F-18C.

Ahora que se va a colaborar en un nuevo caza se está teniendo en cuenta las lecciones del EF-2000 para evitar los retrasos y sobrecostes, pero bueno, para España es el negocio del siglo, un chollo.

Sí, no se van a hacer cuatro cadenas de montaje. Sobre lo último mira más, te alegrará porque verás que los militares e industrias involucrados son netamente positivos.

Saludos

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Dom Jul 29, 2018 12:16 pm
por alejandro_
En cualquier caso su fusión, como la del Rafale, eran las mayores de la cuarta con diferencia, sólo por detrás de la del F-22 y hasta que ha llegado el F-35 y versiones súper-avanzadas de Teens. Lo que dije tenía por tanto toda la razón.


O sea un chollo, en Occidente "sólo" le superan el F-15, F-16, F-18, F-22, F-35 y Rafale.

Hace diez años. Aspecto que igualmente hace años ya mejoró y sige haciéndolo continuamente, como has podido saber.


Y también se comparaban configuraciones disponibles en 2015.

Eso es una simplificación extrema. Es bastante más, eso sólo es el medio de comunicación, pero luego está la manera en que cada uno aprovecha esa capacidad, el software detrás, las presentaciones, etc. Es como decir que por tener APG-65 haces lo mismo, seas un Harrier+ o un F-18C.


Sí, pero es que un Super Hornet te proporciona esa capacidad -y ya va por el segundo AESA- a mucho menor coste. Y no leo a nadie de la US Navy decir que "casi es quinta".

Sobre lo último, infórmate, te alegrará proque verás que los militares e industrias involucrados son netamente positivos.


Sí claro, es un programa sumamente positivo. Cuando uno ve lo contentos que están los austriacos, y cómo pusieron al comandante de la Luftwaffe en la calle por preferir el F-35 - ¿Para qué? Si el EF-2000 es "casi" de quinta. Eso por no hablar de los sobrecostes y retrasos en capacidades.

Re: Cazas contemporáneos (generaciones 4ª "plus" y 5ª)

NotaPublicado: Lun Jul 30, 2018 7:35 am
por Orel
O sea un chollo, en Occidente "sólo" le superan [en fusión de sensores] el F-15, F-16, F-18, F-22, F-35 y Rafale.

Nadie ha dicho eso. Por si mi frase lió: está por detrás de F-22 y F-35, como el resto de cuarta "avanzados", y entre estos últimos andan similares en ese aspecto.

Y también se comparaban configuraciones disponibles en 2015.

Hipotéticas en 2008, y vuelves a olvidar que eso es una fuente de muchas. No es Palabra Sagrada ni Palabra Única. Si nos informamos en global las cosas son diferentes.

Sí, pero es que un Super Hornet te proporciona esa capacidad -y ya va por el segundo AESA- a mucho menor coste. Y no leo a nadie de la US Navy decir que "casi es quinta".

Para empezar, sí que hablan de similaridad al F-35 y cosas así. Pero obviando eso, no es lo mismo porque el F-18E es una versión de un caza anterior a conceptos que se volvieron claves de la quinta, como guerra en red y otros, sí pensados de diseño para EFA o Rafale. Siempre se ha dicho que estos están a caballo entre las dos generaciones, con lo malo... y con lo bueno también. Si le negamos esto último, sesgamos pesimistamente.

Sí claro, es un programa sumamente positivo...

Esa respuesta irónica acierta. Ha tenido mala gestión, pero es más positivo que negativo sin duda, y desde luego para España, que era lo tratado. Pero como dicho antes: hay que informarse globalmente, no sesgarlo sólo a lo negativo. Y como recuerdo ante pesimistas, para animar: ya no digo sólo "leer" que parece "frío" (pero también leed), si escucháis a quienes trabajan con él os despejará muchas dudas. ¡Animáos!

Saludos!