Ases de la Luftwaffe, sus aviones y victorias.

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Ases de la Luftwaffe, sus aviones y victorias.

Notapor Marcelo E el Lun Abr 03, 2006 10:31 pm

flagos escribió:A ver, para que quede claro. (aunque a estas alturas ya deberí­a estarlo).

Yo siempre creí­ en los derribos de los ases (y de Hartman en particular).

Cuando leí­ el debate en FMG (entre dos foristas, Rubén y RAM, podrí­an ser pepito y miguito, da lo mismo) , en un principio me sorprendí­ de la posición del primero. Sinceramente nunca habí­a leí­do que esos derribos se pusieran en duda.


Todo esto nace de un articulo revisionista de Dimitri Kazanov en la revista le fana del aviation, nunca antes se habia cuestinado las victorias de Hartmann, pero como ya saben existe revisionismo del holocausto asi que esto es juego de niños.

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(la RAF no reconoce los derribos de Marseille).


No sea mentirosillo mijo, la RAF dice que hay MENOS derribos de los que afirma Marseille pero no los niega ( parece que alguien tomo un curso acelerado con R.U)

¿Por qué afirmar algo de lo que no hay pruebas? Si tanto lo defienden, muestren los hechos, los testimonios, algo. Si soy (aparentemente) tan loco por poner en duda una "verdad universal" muéstrenme que sustenta esa verdad.


En realidad yo te di no solo una... sino 652 pruebas , las 307 del OKL ( que incluye los testimonios del Heer que tanto te gustan) y los 345 aviones que lo militares rusos reconocieron que Hartmann habia destruido durante su juicio por sabotaje a la Union Sovietica en 1946. ¿Quieres pruebas independientes de la Luftwaffe?...no imagino nada mas independiente que la STAVKA :roll:

El mas el mas facil de probar de todos fue su primer derribo que fue un Il-2 que ya habia sido tocado por sus compañeros, Pero Erich le acerto la rafaga definitiva, ese il-2 cayo en medio de una gran cantidad de testigos, Heer, Luftwaffe, etc,etc.

Si alguno de ustedes pone en duda que a una atmósfera el agua hierve a 100º C, yo no tengo ningún problema en demostrarle que se equivoca. Si alguien pone en duda la fecha de la invasión a Francia o de la rendición alemana, idem.O admitan que sólo hay fé en las palabras de un hombre. Sólo eso.


Falso, en en las palabras y documentos dichos y realizados por centenares de personas.

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Notapor Duffman el Lun Abr 03, 2006 10:49 pm

No os acuseis de mentirosos. Guardad las formas que es muy facil. Di que se ha equivocado, que se ha confundido, que no lo compartes, pero si le llamas mentiroso, el perfectamente puede decirte otra cosa.
“…nuestros alemanes son mejores que los suyos”
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Notapor BERSERKER el Lun Abr 03, 2006 11:17 pm

Me estaba temiendo que alguien sacara este topic, y al final a sido el amigo Marcelo, hubiera preferido no tener que hablar mas de este tema, pero la verdad que para seguir "pisandole" el sitio a Pierre Closterman, mejor discutir aqui, aunque espero que no discutamos demasiado :? .

Flagos escribió:(la RAF no reconoce los derribos de Marseille).


Yo no se si la RAF no los reconocera (dudo que no lo hagan) pero yo tengo libros de Osprey por ejemplo, que tratan el tema de la guerra en el frente del Norte de Africa y Mediterraneo, uno es "Los ases del Bf-109 en el Mediterraneo y el Norte de Africa" (Robert Gretzyngier y Wojtek Matusiak) y el otro "Escuadrones de la Luftwaffe en el Norte de Africa" (basado en textos de John Weal y Jerry Scutts) y en ningun momento ponen en duda la autenticidad de los derribos de Marseille, ademas el libro viene adornado con varias PRUEBAS FOTOGRAFICAS, de Marseille al lado de aviones que el derribo (supongo que no me ira nadie a decir que los tenian ay para que el se tirara fotos con ellos :twisted: )
Ademas, no comprendo porque se iba de haber hecho mas famoso Marseille que era indisciplinado y mujeriego y con un historial no demasiado bueno en la Batalla de Inglaterra (donde fue derribado y recibio reprimendas de sus superiores) y no por ejemplo Arnold Stahlschmidt o Werner Schroer???? Si como se supone sus derribos eran "inventados" (que dios me perdone por decir esas cosas) no hubiera dado igual convertir en "heroe nacional" a alguien mas "ejemplar" que Marseille.

Y otra cosa sospechosa es porque, casi todos los experten coinciden en calificar, a Marseille, como el MEJOR DE ELLOS, como dijo el propio "Bubi" Hartman, "yo no fui el mejor, el mejor fue Marseille" o como le definio otro grandisimo piloto el Inspektor der Jadflieger Adolf Galland "virtuoso sin igual entre los pilotos de caza".
Que se supone que eran estos calificativos? propaganda nazi????


Saludos
Combatian sin cota de malla, como lobos rabiosos, mordían su escudo y poseían la fuerza de un oso. Masacraban a sus adversarios y ni el fuego ni el hierro hacían mella en ellos.

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Re: Ases de la Luftwaffe, sus aviones y victorias.

Notapor flagos el Mar Abr 04, 2006 12:04 am

Marcelo E escribió: la RAF dice que hay MENOS derribos de los que afirma Marseille pero no los niega


Que es lo mismo que pasa con Hartman.

En realidad yo te di no solo una... sino 652 pruebas , las 307 del OKL ( que incluye los testimonios del Heer que tanto te gustan) y los 345 aviones que lo militares rusos reconocieron que Hartmann habia destruido durante su juicio por sabotaje a la Union Sovietica en 1946. ¿Quieres pruebas independientes de la Luftwaffe?...no imagino nada mas independiente que la STAVKA :roll:


Yo no ví­ ninguna.

1-Nada de afirmaciones del OKL (es lo mismo que si lo afirmara Hartman)
2-¿Cuál documento ruso has mostrado?
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Notapor Marcelo E el Mar Abr 04, 2006 2:19 am

No os acuseis de mentirosos


Mentirosillo es una palabra casi cariñosa. :lol:

Yo no ví­ ninguna.

1-Nada de afirmaciones del OKL (es lo mismo que si lo afirmara Hartman)
2-¿Cuál documento ruso has mostrado


Ah ¡¡...perfecto , si te queres dedicar al nihilismo cuestion tuya, no soy yo el que queda mal. ¿ Y que pruebas tenes vos de que paso lo contrario? :roll:

Un consejo... anda al FMG te vas a sentir mas a gusto.

otra cosa sospechosa es porque, casi todos los experten coinciden en calificar, a Marseille, como el MEJOR DE ELLOS, como dijo el propio "Bubi" Hartman, "yo no fui el mejor, el mejor fue Marseille" o como le definio otro grandisimo piloto el Inspektor der Jadflieger Adolf Galland "virtuoso sin igual entre los pilotos de caza".
Que se supone que eran estos calificativos? propaganda nazi????


Probablemente Marseille era el mejor tirador de la Luftwaffe, es decir el que mejor uso hacia del armamento del Bf-109F-2/4 que si bien era de buena calidad no era muy abundante, solo 2 Mg de 7,92mm con 500 dpa mas una ametralladora pesada de 15mm (F-2) o cañon de 20mm ( F-4) con 150-180 disparos.
El muchacho tenia mucha habilidad para los tiros con deflexion y generalmente no empleaba la tactica de hacercarse demasiado al blanco sestilo Hartmann.

Usar las 3 armas de manera conjunta en una rafaga corta es donde estaba en gran genio de Marseille.

Bf-109F-4/Z ( con inyeccion de oxido nitroso) de Marseille, febrero de 1942.

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Notapor BERSERKER el Mar Abr 04, 2006 10:36 am

Alguna prueba irrefutable supongo, de derribos de Marseille

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Combatian sin cota de malla, como lobos rabiosos, mordían su escudo y poseían la fuerza de un oso. Masacraban a sus adversarios y ni el fuego ni el hierro hacían mella en ellos.

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Notapor alejandro_ el Mar Abr 04, 2006 12:05 pm

ademas el libro viene adornado con varias PRUEBAS FOTOGRAFICAS, de Marseille al lado de aviones que el derribo (supongo que no me ira nadie a decir que los tenian ay para que el se tirara fotos con ellos)


Pero esto representa a una parte de sus derribos. Ni siquiera el hecho de tener una fotocamara garantizá que los derribos puedan ser confirmados al 100%.

¿Quieres pruebas independientes de la Luftwaffe?...no imagino nada mas independiente que la STAVKA


Ese juicio fue un montaje, como otros miles realizados durante las purgas.

Si todas las naciones reclamaban de más ¿Porque no le iba a pasar a los alemanes? a ver si alguien me responde.

Saludos.
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Notapor flagos el Mar Abr 04, 2006 12:23 pm

Marcelo E escribió: 1-Nada de afirmaciones del OKL (es lo mismo que si lo afirmara Hartman)
2-¿Cuál documento ruso has mostrado


Ah ¡¡...perfecto , si te queres dedicar al nihilismo cuestion tuya, no soy yo el que queda mal. ¿ Y que pruebas tenes vos de que paso lo contrario? :roll: [/quote]

Imagina que me enojo contigo y te dirijo injurias graves (te llamo asesino, violador, etc) y ante tu enojo, el moderador en lugar de reprimirme contesta con un "prueba que no lo eres"

¿Macabro verdad? Por eso en ningún sitio que prime la cordura se aplica algo así­.

Yo no debo probar que Hartman no derribó 352 aviones, es él (o sus defensores en su lugar) quienes deben probar que lo hizo.

Hay muchos libros de Hartman, ¿Ninguno contiene el testimonio de unos soldados alemanes testigos de sus enfrentamientos, o que recogieran al aparato ruso? ¿Ni uno? Porque deberí­a haber 352 testimonios similares.

No dudo que el tipo haya derribado 100-150 aviones y que haya sido un genio en lo suyo. Solo pongo en duda un número exagerado.
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Notapor BERSERKER el Mar Abr 04, 2006 1:19 pm

alejandro escribió:Si todas las naciones reclamaban de más ¿Porque no le iba a pasar a los alemanes? a ver si alguien me responde.



Y quien os a dicho a ti a y Flagos que a Hartman y a Marseille se les reconocieron todos los derribos que ellos reclamamaron?

Me podeis contestar a esto?

Y conterstarme tambien de una vez porque todos los historiadores (el 90%) dan por validos esos resusltados de derribos que se les adjudican, contestarme a eso.
Combatian sin cota de malla, como lobos rabiosos, mordían su escudo y poseían la fuerza de un oso. Masacraban a sus adversarios y ni el fuego ni el hierro hacían mella en ellos.

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Notapor alejandro_ el Mar Abr 04, 2006 1:37 pm

Y conterstarme tambien de una vez porque todos los historiadores (el 90%) dan por validos esos resusltados de derribos que se les adjudican, contestarme a eso.


¿Y de donde sacas ese 90%? la mayorí­a de los historiadores dan ese número sin más discusión, no se molestan en investigarlo.
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Notapor flagos el Mar Abr 04, 2006 1:41 pm

Disculpa por contestar con una pregunta Berserker, pero creo que es importante:

¿Qué historiadores y con qué datos?

¿Rusos? No.

Alemanes, estadounidenses, ingleses, etc. Con libros escritos en 1945-1990. ¿Qué habí­a con Rusia en ese momento? Creer en los untermenschen y en los maravillosos occidentales era algo fundamental.

¿Qué datos tienen? ¿Esos libros muestran las planillas soviéticas con los números de aviones desplegados y perdidos en los lugares donde combatió Hartman? ¿Muestran fotos comprobadas de los 352 aviones? ¿Muestran testimonios de soldados alemanes o rusos que vieran los enfrentamientos? ¿Al menos fotos de las fotocámaras?

¿O sólo dicen, tantos aviones en tal lugar porque así­ Hartman se lo contó a su esposa?

Desde el vamos que todo libro escrito antes de la caí­da de la URSS es inválido. ¿Por qué? Porque ofrece una visión parcial de los hechos (la versión alemana) sin contrastar con la otra versión, que es lo propio de la historia seria (no lo digo yo, lo dice el hombre que posiblemente sea la máxima autoridad en la guerra del frente oriental, David Glantz).
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Notapor BERSERKER el Mar Abr 04, 2006 2:19 pm

Vamos que esos historiadores, no han se han molestado en hacer un estudio, entonces que mierda de historiadores son?
Solo va a valer la palabra de los historiadores rusos, con la habitual transparencia rusa, para todo lo que tenga que ver con perdidas de sus ejercitos.
Perdona que te diga pero me fio mas de los historiadores occidentales sean del pais que sena que de los historiadores rusos, sobre todo de la epoca sovietica.

Y si Flagos te vas a dedicar a estar todo el tiempo a decir que te aportemos prubebas fisicas 60 años despues de los combates, 60 años en los que no creo que ningun historiador occidental haya podido hacer un trabajo de campo imparcial, porque los sovieticos no se lo hubieran permitido, pues tu mismo, sigue (o seguir tu y alejandro) pensando que no, pero no hablemos solo de Hartman hay centenares de pilotos alemanes con cifras de 3 numeros todos mentian, ninguna es comprobable?

Haber si va a resultar que la Luftwaffe y sus pilotos que poco menos que lucho casi sola, contra, toda Europa durante 5 años, no derribo ningun avion.
Combatian sin cota de malla, como lobos rabiosos, mordían su escudo y poseían la fuerza de un oso. Masacraban a sus adversarios y ni el fuego ni el hierro hacían mella en ellos.

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Notapor alejandro_ el Mar Abr 04, 2006 3:01 pm

No solo los historiadores rusos ponen en duda los reclamos alemanes:

LUFTWAFFE EXPERTEN, Fact or Fiction?

By Jeff Kenneday

Updated version: 12/6/04

All throughout conflict, the claims of damage caused to the enemy has been far in excess of the actual damage incurred. Partly to keep morale high, but often in the honest opinion that the damage had been inflicted upon the enemy.

This discrepancy has been highlighted in the 20th Century where the claims made by U-Boat & Submarine Commanders, Pilots and Air Gunners became of great importance to the various propaganda units and the inflated claims passed on to history.

Ludovic Kennedy, in his book "Pursuit" which covers the chase for the Bismark and its destruction refers to the attack by Admiral Vian & his Destroyers;(I have paraphrased this) "Claims were submitted by the Destroyers for 3, possibly 4 hits on Bismark. However no hits were made, equally Bismark claimed to have sunk a Destroyer and damage caused to others. All claims were made in good faith, the crews after hours at action stations EXPECTED to make hits, and they saw what they assumed they would see, so any unusual explosions were assumed to have been hits and were claimed as such." Similarly for the Fighter Pilots, I have fired at the enemy; I believe I had hit him, that 'plane going down in smoke must be mine.

After WW2, the claims by USN Submarine commanders were officially reviewed and a substantial number of claimed sinkings disallowed, and in a few cases, increased. The claims made by RAF & USAAF fighter pilots were discounted (and often ridiculed) after access was allowed into the records of the Luftwaffe and Japanese Air Forces.

However, despite the awarded victories soaring above 350, the victory claims of Luftwaffe pilots were considered above reproach, that the Luftwaffe had a system that was meticulous and carefully researched and checked.

The Decoration system of the Luftwaffe was also closely tied to the Victories awarded, Aircraft types had points allocated to them and a certain number of points resulted in the award being posted. Added to this, was the Political situation which could have easily been used to "coerce" other pilots to confirm claims. Some Pilots, Marseille for one, seemed to have their claims confirmed much faster than the system implies, and whose careers were closely monitored by the Armed Services Press.

Recently however, the information has surfaced which allows us to compare the "kills" awarded to Luftwaffe Pilots against the losses incurred by the RAF on a day by day basis. Startling discrepancies appear between those numbers which were awarded as kills and the actual losses suffered by the RAF.

The period up to the end of the Battle of Britain, November 1 1940 provides a capsule in time where claims and losses can be compared and where a good base of data appears. Specific USAAF 8th Air Force & Bomber Command Raids can also be compared, though while Allied information shows the total losses, they often do not distinguish Flak, & "Other" losses from those where the Aircraft was Shot Down. It is therefore not unlikely that Allied losses can be greater than the claims made for their destruction.

In this article I will try to compare come of these Days, comparing the claims approved by the OKL Administration which tally up to the claims made by the Luftwaffe experten, you can see each of the Victories awarded to Galland, Marseille, Steinhof, Munchenberg etc, against the losses suffered by the RAF. Some days, usually when the numbers involved were highest, the discrepancies where high. On the quieter days the numbers were closer.

I do not attempt to denigrate the efforts and skills of the Luftwaffe Experten; they fought a much harder war than the RAF and their chances to accumulate Victories much higher. Neville Duke, one of the high scoring RAF pilots with 28 "kills" entered the action in April 1941, was sent on 2, 6 month rest periods and left combat about 6 months before wars end, therefore being in action for about 36 months flying about 490 sorties, added to this was the rarity in which Luftwaffe aircraft were sighted after late 1943. The Luftwaffe wore their Pilots into the ground, though the number of Allied Aircraft in the skies made finding their foe much easier. Hartmann did not get posted to JG52 until August 1942, was consistantly flying up to 4 missions each day flying over 1400 missions through some of the worst flying weather on earth. I am unable to compare any figures for the war in the East, I am unsure that even the Red Air Force knew the actual size of their losses, and leave this field for someone else to investigate.

18 DECEMBER 1939 HELIGOLAND BIGHT

On 18 December 1939, the RAF decided to mount a raid on the German fleet at Wilhelm shaven and orders were drafted for 24 Wellington Medium bombers to carry out the raid. 9 aircraft from 149 Squadron, 9 from 9 Squadron and 6 from 37 Squadron were selected to "Attack enemy warships in the Schillig Roads or Wilhelmshaven. Great care is to be taken to ensure that no bombs fall on shore"

While 24 Wellington's took off, 2 from 149 Sqn returned to base early leaving 22 to carry on. The bombers managed to successfully fly over the German Fleet, but their Orders about bombing German soil caused the abortion of the raid as the leader decided the ships, tied up in Port where too close to shore to be bombed. It was only after they turned for home did the German Fighters attack.

The ensuing massacre saw thew shooting down of 10 Wellingtons, nearly 50% of the attacking force, however the Fighters claimed to have destroyed 34 Victories, over 150% of the attackers though OKL pruned this down to 26, still more than the force started with.

What happened to the excellent Luftwaffe system which has been held above reproach, and stand as the solid base for the amazing claims by its pilots?

In a frantic, swirling battle, it wasn't hard to ASSUME your shots had caused the fatal damage, especially to a Bomber which took a good amount of damage to destroy. You make your run, score solid hits, flash past at 300mph+, when you turn you see a 'plane fall out of the sky, It MUST be yours, and your wingman confirms it as he sees the same thing.

An excuse can be made that the action was over the sea, and destroyed aircraft could not be investigated.


JULY 1940-OCTOBER 1940 THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN.

The Battle of France was a wild melee, Allied Units continually falling back and the advancing Germans meant that both sides could be excused for poor paperwork.

After the collapse of France , the Luftwaffe turned to England and after some sparring over Convoys, on 10 July began what is known as The Battle of Britain.

Through out the Battle, which continued to 31 October 1940, the Luftwaffe Propaganda machine claimed to have destroyed over 3000 RAF aircraft, clearly exceeding the size of the RAF at the time. OKL officially credited its Pilots with the destruction of about 1955 Spitfires & Hurricanes (I have deducted Defiants, Blenheims and other aircraft) which compares unfavourably with the RAF losses of either 932 ("The Narrow Margin" by Wood & Dempster) or 755 Spitfires & Hurricanes (Fighter Command Losses & Casualties by Frank) Included in the RAF losses are those which were shot down by Bombers, and not included in the OKL figures but not those which "crash landed at an airfield" and were repaired. It is hard to pick out those shot down by the Bombers as many final moments are not clear and they are only listed as shot down.

In this period, the reputation of many Luftwaffe experten were built upon, but it appears that their tallies must be inflated. Marseille, The Star of Africa, was awarded his first kill on 8 September for a Spitfire, on the same day 4 other Spitfires were claimed though the RAF only lost 1, was Marseille mistaken and he destroyed a Hurricane, OKL awarded 8 Hurricane kills but Frank's details only 4 as being shot down!! Marseille went on to claim 6 other victories over the Channel, none of which are detailed in any official records but go to make up his tally of 158 "kills".

Other days with "interesting" results
Date OKL Awards Narrow Margin/Franks
10 July 27 5/1
11 July 2 4/7
29 July 18 3/3
8 August 38 19/15
11 August 55 32/26
15 August 87 34/30
18 August 86 27/29
31 August 97 37/39
6 September 58 23/20
7 September 72 28/23
15 September 69 26/27
27 September 79 28/24
30 September 54 20/14

By the end of the Battle RAF losses were only 47.67% of OKL awards according to The Narrow Margin or 38.62% according to Franks. (Some of this difference are the Defiants, Blenheims etc. which I didn't tally in the Franks figures.)

Added to these figures are the accuracy of aircraft types (a problem throughout the war to all sides) OKL awarded 712 Hurricane kills and 1243 Spitfire kills , Franks tallies to 470 Hurricanes and only 285 Spitfires. This would probably be attributed to the "desire" to shoot down the better aircraft. Claims were also awarded for some odd types, a continual reference to Hawks or Hawk-75's, a Radial engined aircraft totally different to any RAF fighter, some Morane's, a Bloch MB 151, and a Bregeut Bre693(more possible as this was close to the fall of France)

PART II

8th Air Force raids on Schweinfurt in 1943 are interesting, as are the victories awarded over Dieppe in August 1942

In 1943, the USAAF flew 2 raids on the German Ball Bearing plants at Schweinfurt, on 17 August, 376 B-17 Flying Fortress's were involved, USAAF losses were about 60 B-17's plus many which were scrapped upon landing. This was a loss rate of around 16%.
However, OKL awarded 94 B-17 and 4 P-47 Victories. Given the ability of the Luftwaffe to investigate the damage on the ground, how do they explain a 50% over claim.


On 14 October, a second raid was mounted, this was an even greater disaster in that of the 291 Bombers sent out, another 60 were destroyed in Combat, nearly 20% losses. But OKL was to excel and awarded 146 B-17 Kills, half of the attacking force, and once again it was within their ability to examine wreckage.

Both raids were intercepted outside Allied fighter cover, so the Luftwaffe Interceptors could operate without continual harassment, so how did they manage to have approved about 250 Kills as against actual losses of 120

THE WESTERN DESERT

An excellent work, Desert Warriors by Russell Brown covers the Desert Air Force Tomahawk & Kittyhawk Squadrons.
The Foreword is by Bobby Gibbes, a high scoring Australian pilot of the North African theatre.

"It was not possible for a Desert Pilot to have a victory confirmed without a witness. Our aircraft were not equipped with camera-guns, so we had no photographic record of combats fought. It was so difficult to get confirmation that on 1 occasion I did not bother to submit a sortie report even though I confirmed it myself afterwards when driving from the airfield at Bir Durfan to the area. I found the wreckage of the bf109 with the body of the dead pilot still inside…..

After the war I became a friend of Erhard Braune, ex commander of III/JG27. In a discussion with him on tactics etc, I asked why the claims of some Luftwaffe pilots appeared unrealistic as they DIDN'T ADD UP TO OUR KNOWN LOSSES.
He told me that these high claims 'HELPED THE MORALE OF THE GERMAN PEOPLES.


El autor da ejemplos bastante claros y concretos.
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Notapor alejandro_ el Mar Abr 04, 2006 3:03 pm

Some Cases:
15 September 1942
JG27 escorting Stukas intercept the attacking fighters and are awarded 19 Victories. 11 by I Gruppe, 1 by II Gruppe, 7 by III Gruppe
However, the P-40's intercepting this Stuka raid were put up by 239 Wing, 36 Kittyhawks from 250 Sqn , 3 RAAF, 450 RAAF, 112 Sqns . Only SIX Kittyhawks failed to return, one which was claimed to be shot down by friendly AA Fire. (2 losses from 250 Sqn, 2 from 3 Sqn, 1 each from 450 & 112 Sqns)

12 Oct 1941
Allied losses, 2 P-40's were shot down, 1 crashed on landing, 1 crashed inside Allied lines.
4 kills were awarded, 2 to Marseille, 1 to Sinner & Franzikest

30 Oct 1941
Allied losses of 2 P-40's and 1 damaged
4 kills awarded, 3 to Schulz, 1 to Schacht

22 May 1942
1 P-40 shot down, 1 missing and 1 crash landed at base.
5 kills awarded.

1 June 1942
1 P-40 shot down, 1 damaged
3 P-40's claimed, 1 Hurricane claimed despite not being present.


3 September 1942
2 P-40's shot down, 1 crash landed at base.
6 kills awarded, 3 to Marseille & 3 to Stahlschmidt (including a Spitfire, not present)

5 September 1942
2 Spitfires shot down, 1 P-40 shot down and 1 damaged
9 Kills awarded, 4 (All P-40) to Marseille, 2 to Stahlschmidt and 3 to Rodel

15 September 1942
5 P-40 shot down and 1 shot down by own LAA
7 kills for Marseille, 4 to Krainek, 3 to Schroer (incl Spitfire)2 for von Lieres and singles to Homuth, Bornger, Grube & Stuckler.


Russell Brown also states,

The inability of the German Fighter force to support its ground forces effectively, contrasted sharply with the evolution of the RAF's tactics and operational procedures as the Desert War progressed.
The tactical use of Medium Bombers, and the highly effective Kittyhawks which were able to offer direct support to the troops with their bombing and strafing was never matched by the Luftwaffe. The fact that many of the fighter pilots ran up big personal scores was irrelevant to the prosecution of the war and the undue emphasis placed on such achievements was an indication of the failure by German Commanders at all levels to understand the principles of Air Power.

(Of his "158 Victories, Marseille only claimed 3 Bombers, 1 Blenheim and 2 Marylands.)

DIEPPE 19 AUGUST 1942

One of the biggest air battles of the war, saw the RAF claim around 120 Kills against Luftwaffe losses of about 40

On the Luftwaffe side , claims awarded were 113, against Allied losses of about 100. This appears to be close until you look at the reason for the losses.
The RAF appears to have lost only 48 Aircraft in Air-Air Combat, with a further 14 Aircraft who failed to Return to Base (7 of these Mustang Ia on long range recce).
27 losses were said to be due to AA Fire.
Many Aircraft which did return to England were badly damaged and either destroyed on landing or faced lengthy rebuilds.
The Luftwaffe claimed 105 Spitfires, but A-A losses were 34 Spitfire Vb, 2 Spitfire Vc, 2 Spitfire VI & 5 Spitfire IX, a total of 44.
(Not included in Luftwaffe claims was a Typhoon Ia of 266 Sqn shot down by a Spitfire!)


ps. It is possible that Allied losses should have added to them, 8 Spitfire V's of the USAAF which were lost on this day.

THE LONG OFFENSIVE FRANCE/ENGLAND & THE CHANNEL 1941

During 1941 the RAF began to turn the tide against the Luftwaffe, many raids were mounted over the French Ports and those Airfields within range of the RAF Fighters. These tactics saw a continual drain on RAF numbers, many experienced fighter pilots were lost for minimal return.

A small force of Luftwaffe fighters kept the RAF busy, scoring far more effectively than their opposite numbers. However the traditional Fighter Pilot quality of claiming victories continued.

Records show that the kills awarded to Luftwaffe pilots numbered nearly 1500. 850 of these for Spitfires, 100 for Hurricane, 161 Blenheim, 149 Wellington and 1 Lancaster??

However, RAF losses in air-air combat or "Failed to Return" by Fighter Command numbered about 505, Luftwaffe claims against similar models being 965. Of the 505 lost, 92 were Hurricane I or II and 412 Spitfire I, II or V.


Just as in the Battle of Britain, the days with few claims would bear reasonable resemblance, but many of the busier days saw excessive awarding of kills by a multiple of 3-4 times.
4/7/41 3 Lost, 11 Kills awarded.
7/7/41 2 lost, 11 awarded
23/7/41 10 lost, 37 awarded
12/8/41 7 lost, 23 awarded.


As well as these Air to air losses, the RAF suffered heavy losses to Flak and "other" operational causes. While heavy, the losses are bearable, the failure was in the inability to cause any substantial loss to the Luftwaffe or German Military installations.


Reference Sources
OKL reports at www.luftboard.ndo.co.uk
The Narrow Margin by Derek Wood & Derek Dempster
Test Pilot by Neville Duke
Bomber Command by Max Hastings
Horrido by Raymond Toliver & Trevor Constable
The Story of Air Fighting & Full Circle by J.E (Johnnie) Johnson
Fighter Pilots of the RAF 1939-45 by Chas Bowyer
Fighter Command Losses by Norman Franks
Hans Joachim Marseille by Kursowick
Fly for your Life (Stanford-Tuck)
Ace of Aces (Pattle)
Ginger Lacey - Fighter Pilot
The First to the Last - Galland
& too many others to note.

{note:there is more after this on the Luftwaffe's confirmation system}
alejandro_
 
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Notapor alejandro_ el Mar Abr 04, 2006 3:04 pm

La verdad es que el artí­culo es muy revelador. Matizo que estos ejemplos son del Frente Occidental donde no hay purgas, comisarios, censura...

Saludos.
alejandro_
 
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Registrado: Lun Mar 27, 2006 4:28 pm

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