Moderadores: Lepanto, poliorcetes, Edu, Orel
Pathfinder escribió:No llegaban a ofrecer las 64 uds requeridas .
Lockheed Martin’s bid for the HX programme is likely the one that has caused the most speculation, and this blog has seen its fair share of that as well. Scott Davis, Lockheed Martin’s Managing Director for Finland, was happy to chat and clear up some of the remaining confusion.
Let’s begin with the elephant in the room: the offer in their BAFO is for 64 F-35A, and this is most certainly the number the company expects to supply Finland in case they win.
Más barato la adquisición que el Gripen E considerando todo las cosas a mayores, casi nada.
Precios adquisición: F-35A = 73.5 M Euros/ud
Bilbo escribió:Pathfinder escribió:No llegaban a ofrecer las 64 uds requeridas .
¿Te refieres a dentro del presupuesto?
optimist escribió:Los precios están fijados por ley. Es imposible y una mala práctica comercial cobrar a diferentes países un precio diferente. Todo el mundo, incluso los Estados Unidos, paga el mismo precio de Flyaway para un año determinado. Además, hay tasas y cargos.
Finland will fly approximately 9,000 hours annually, which is in line with the current Hornet flight hours. However, with the relative large number of aircraft that actually mean that the Finnish fleet flies 140 flight hours per aircraft annually – approximately half of what the USAF does. This naturally create less wear and lower maintenance cost per aircraft and year. Notable is also that the 2 Bn EUR in upgrades are placed outside of the 254 MEUR annual operating costs, a relic from the Hornet-era where upgrades were major MLU-style projects. Another key difference between Finnish and many other European air forces is that Finland plan to shift training from the US back to Finland at a relatively early stage – following their good experiences with the current (cost-effective) proptrainer – Hawk – Hornet pipeline. Keeping pilots at home instead of paying for them living abroad usually turns out to be cheaper (have you seen the real estate prices in Rovaniemi lately?), and we haven’t even mentioned the conscript mechanics. At the end of the day, all bids had roughly similar annual operating costs.
Side note: Yes, that means that no Finnish fighters will stay in the US.
The explanations sounds reasonable enough to me, but even more convincing are two other factors. To begin with, the Finnish Defence Forces is small enough that there isn’t much room for infighting and the Air Force can’t afford to start eating the budget of the other services. And while you might argue that I am naive on that point, even more crucially both external audits and calculations made by the MoD has shown nothing out of the ordinary.
It was up to the HX organization to assess what was credible in Lockheed Martin’s offer.
"The offer set out how the cost level will evolve by 2031. It can be said that when they presented the cost level, we came to the conclusion that they will end up with higher costs."
Even with the HX organization's own, higher-than-manufacturer cost estimate, the F-35 passed the comparison.
“Uncertainties are reflected in the dispersion of [cost modeling]. We had a requirement that operating and maintenance costs should fall below that EUR 254 million [annual] limit with 95% certainty. We learned in the process that the cut-off point was perhaps even too hard.”
It was, of course, a condition for accepting the offer, so it went all the way.
...
"A solution was sought that had to deliver a certain level of security of supply, an acceptable package of industrial cooperation, and then maximize performance."
This ensemble gives rise to interdependencies which, in the case of Dassault and Eurofighter, did not meet the requirements. According to Renko, the matter may still be opened to the public after the HX organization has discussed the matter with the manufacturers.
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The industrial co-operation of Lockheed Martin's offer includes the manufacture of the front fuselage of 400 fighters in Finland. Renko emphasizes that this is a manufacture, not just an assembly, and this is an important difference.
“It becomes an understanding of why machine systems, such as hydraulic and electrical systems, have been implemented, why construction solutions are what they are and what kind of processes have been used. These are all very important things in repairing combat damage.”
It was up to the HX organization to assess what was credible in Lockheed Martin’s offer.
"The offer set out how the cost level will evolve by 2031. It can be said that when they presented the cost level, we came to the conclusion that they will end up with higher costs."
Even with the HX organization's own, higher-than-manufacturer cost estimate, the F-35 passed the comparison.
“Uncertainties are reflected in the dispersion of [cost modeling]. We had a requirement that operating and maintenance costs should fall below that EUR 254 million [annual] limit with 95% certainty. We learned in the process that the cut-off point was perhaps even too hard.”
It was, of course, a condition for accepting the offer, so it went all the way.
optimist escribió:La tasa FMS es un 3,2% fijo. Todos los precios son transparentes. Cualquier diferencia es lo que compran, repuestos, armas y año de compra. Incluso la ayuda militar que reciben Israel y Egipto es pública. Siguen pagando el mismo precio FMS que todos los demás con lo que compran. Israel tiene algunos extras en el f-35, al igual que los que tienen paracaídas de arrastre y pagan extra. Los socios tienen costes diferentes.
max escribió:los que se sorprendan por el resultado en Finlandia no siguen bien la politica comercial de los yankees en estos tiempos........fakes, precios increibles, trileria....mirad esta https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/les-etats-unis-proposent-des-fregates-a-la-grece-en-concurrence-avec-la-france-20211210
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