Helicópteros de combate

[poliorcetes]

El price tag del tigre eran 40 millones?

[champi]

En números redondos los franceses están pagando €51 millones por unidad (excluyendo los gastos de desarrollo, que elevan esa cifra a €74 millones) y nosotros unos €56 millones por unidad.

[poliorcetes]

jodó petaca. ¿Y un tigre puede hacer el curro de dos cobra zulú?

Me temo que es una pregunta retórica

[Voronezh]

Para mi que eso tiene truco. El Desarrollo del Cobra zulu solo cuenta la ultima modernizacion, mientras que el Tigre cuenta todo el desarrollo. Aparte de que para mi que no se compara en las mismas unidades monetarias. Recordemos que no vale lo mismo un Dollar US de 1985 que uno de 2007.

[poliorcetes]

No digo que no, pero el precio del desarrollo se lo han zampado los gringos, mientras que nosotros nos lo comemos... voluntariamente.

[champi]

Las cifras suelen bailar según quien las dé. Personalmente, me fí­o más del GAO. Un informe de este año:



Como se ve, acumula un retraso muy importante, y los sobrecostes del programa (a pesar de que está desarrollado sobre una base con 40 años a sus espaldas) también son muy importantes. Esa fue una de las razones que llevaron a Turquí­a a no comprarlo cuando ya habí­a ganado su concurso...

[poliorcetes]

Hombre, habrí­a que ver si nos lo ofrecen a la mitad que el tigre. porque una cosa es comprar 20 máquinas a precio elevado, y otra el caso turco que querí­a fabricar al máximo la máquina más barata posible. De hecho, supongo que el problema histórico con rusia impidió la venta del Mil mi-28, que da vueltas alrededor del italiano en capacidades y en relación calidad-precio

[champi]

el caso turco que querí­a fabricar al máximo la máquina más barata posible

El concurso turco fue un poco chapucero, a veces querí­an fabricar, a veces no tanto: http://gbulten.ssm.gov.tr/arsiv/2005/11/23/01.htm

Here is the chronological anatomy of an “attempted”defense buy, probably not seen elsewhere in the world:

1995: Turkey launches a multi-billion-dollar program for the co-production of scores of attack helicopters.

1997: Murad Bayar, now Turkey's chief defense procurement official and head of the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM), is a young and promising SSM official who heads the team that oversees the program.

1998: Turkey shortlists the contenders to three.

2000: Turkey selects Bell Helicopter Textron for the co-production contract. Hasty cheers at Bell's Fort Worth, Texas, (and Ankara) headquarters as contract negotiations begin.

2001: Turkey insists on installing a “national”mission computer on the platforms as part of the co-production program. (The mission computer is one of the most critical systems that command the helicopter's avionics, electronics and warfare systems.)

2001: The Department of Defense in Washington, in a letter to Ankara, makes clear that it will not issue an export license for the deal because a Turkish (or any non-U.S.) mission computer cannot be installed on a U.S.-made platform.

July 2002: Talks with Bell collapse over pricing and technology transfer issues. Talks with rival Kamov-IAI, a Russian-Israeli partnership, begin.

August 2002: Turkey begins to weigh the option of buying off-the-shelf, instead of co-producing.

April 2003: The attack helicopter program faces suspension because of a cash squeeze.

December 2003: SSM Undersecretary Dursun Ali Ercan recommends the Kamov-IAI solution as the best option to meet Turkey's (then) eight-year-old requirement to procure attack helicopters. But few in the Army are impressed with the proposed model that coincidentally carried the name of the Turkish prime minister: Erdogan.

February 2004: Mr. Bayar takes over as SSM chief.

May 2004: Turkey cancels the co-production program altogether.

February 2005: Turkey officially launches international bidding for a mix of off-the-shelf/co-production model that styles itself as off-the-shelf. Actually, the model is a hybrid. The SSM releases a Request for Proposal (RfP) for the competition. Several U.S. and European manufacturers buy the RfP. The bidding deadline is June 4.

April 2005: Bell says it is withdrawing from competition it once had won, but is now expected to join again.

May 2005: Turkey revises the RfP, or the contractual clauses, upon loud complaints from mainly U.S. contenders. The new bidding deadline is Sept. 13.

September 2005: Mr. Bayar says an indigenous mission computer and other critical software have strategic importance for Turkey; hence, they must be nationally developed and manufactured. Potential bidders are reluctant to bid, and the bidding deadline is put off till Nov. 8.

November 2005: Bell reiterates that it will not participate. Boeing says it will only bid for the off-the-shelf portion (10-30 helicopters) and not for the rest of the program, which entails an eventual 91 helicopters. The European side is not enthusiastic, either. Ankara fears a competition “without the Americans”would be incomplete and may push the Europeans to “inflate their prices.”The new bidding deadline is Dec. 5.

Las indecisiones polí­ticas hicieron que se acabara comprando una plataforma que nunca fue la favorita.

[poliorcetes]

gracias por la referencia. Por supuesto, nadie asumirí­a responsabilidades por semejante desastre

[champi]

Otra vez con los precios a vueltas. Precio del Apache para la India: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... gress.html

(Source: Defense Security Cooperation Agency; issued December 27, 2010)

WASHINGTON --- The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress on December 22 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of India of various engines, equipment, weapons, training, parts and logistical support for a possible Direct Commercial Sale of 22 AH-64D Block III Apache helicopters.

The complete package is worth approximately $1.4 billion.

The Government of India has requested proposals from several foreign suppliers, including the United States, to provide the next generation attack helicopter for the Indian Air Force. In this competition, the Government of India has yet to select the Boeing-United States Army proposal. This notification is being made in advance so that, in the event that the Boeing- U.S. Army proposal is selected, the United States might move as quickly as possible to implement the sale.

If the Government of India selects the Boeing-U.S. Army proposal, the Government of India will request a possible sale of 50 T700-GE-701D engines, 12 AN/APG-78 Fire Control Radars, 12 AN/APR-48A Radar Frequency Interferometers, 812 AGM-114L-3 HELLFIRE LONGBOW missiles, 542 AGM-114R-3 HELLFIRE II missiles, 245 STINGER Block I-92H missiles, and 23 Modernized Target Acquisition Designation Sight/Pilot Night Vision Sensors, rockets, training and dummy missiles, 30mm ammunition, transponders, simulators, global positioning system/inertial navigation systems, communication equipment, spare and repair parts; tools and test equipment, support equipment, repair and return support, personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics support to be provided in conjunction with a proposed direct commercial sale of 22 AH-64D Block III APACHE Helicopters. The estimated cost is $1.4 billion.
...
The prime contractors will be Lockheed Martin Corporation in Orlando, Florida; General Electric Company, in Cincinnati Ohio; Lockheed Martin Mission Systems and Sensor in Owego, New York; Longbow Limited Liability Corporation in Orlando, Florida; and Raytheon Company in Tucson, Arizona. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.
...
This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded. (ends)

$63.6 millones la unidad con todo incluí­do (pero sin contraprestaciones industriales). Estarí­a interesante saber cual es la oferta de Eurocopter, aunque por estas tierras las cosas no suelen ser tan trasparentes...

[champi]

Accidente de un Mi-28 en Rusia: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01048.html

The Associated Press
Tuesday, February 15, 2011; 6:44 AM

ROSTOV-ON-DON, Russia -- Russian news agencies say the Defense Ministry has grounded its fleet of Mi-28 attack helicopters following a crash in the south of the country that killed the pilot.

The agencies said that the military helicopter crashed in daylight Tuesday attempting an emergency landing after engine failure in the province of Stavropol. A co-pilot was injured, the reports said.

The military routinely grounds aircraft after disasters.

The Mi-28 is nicknamed Night Hunter because of its sophisticated radar equipment that allows night missions, and is roughly analogous to the U.S. Boeing AH-64 Apache.

It entered service in 1996.

DEP

[LOF]

attempting an emergency landing after engine failure

O el 28 es una mierda que con el fallo de una turbina , ni se mantiene en vuelo ni autorrota decentemente....o ha pasado otra cosa.
(dice "engine failure", significando fallo de UNA turbina)

[champi]

Buscando en Ria Novosti: http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110215/162612069.html

...
"According to preliminary information, the engine gearbox broke and the crew decided to carry out an emergency landing," the source said. "The aircraft crashed cabin-first into the ground."
...
MOSCOW/PYATIGORSK, February 15 (RIA Novosti)

[polluelo]

De todas maneras muy fino no parece que ande, he estado mirando y van mas o menos a parada forzosa de toda la flota por accidentes varios una vez al año.

[LOF]

the engine gearbox broke

Eso es otra cosa. Ya me extrañaba a mi.
Se le ha ido la transmision principal o la caja combinada...eso si obliga a autorrotar. Y tambien obliga a parar la flota...