Guerra en Siria

[ruso]

¿Ha sido un ataque o una defensa?.

Saludos.

[armada62]

Quien sabe!. Unos dicen que estaba dentro y los otros fuera. Mi opinión es que estaba dentro (cómo tantas otras veces, al igual que a la inversa), pero ésta vez han disparado. ¿Porqué? Quizá para enviar un mensaje a la comunidad internacional, a los turcos, a los rebeldes....
Parece que la respuesta de Turquía va a quedar en un cambio en las ROEs en las fronteras con Siria, o sea, un endurecimiento de las medidas de control

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW2dlumUkq0

[poliorcetes]

No se puede ir siempre de farol. Esta vez les ha salido bien por poco al gobierno sirio, pero no siempre será posible contener al ejército turco de devolver el saludo

[ruso]

Poliorcetes, parece que ves esto como algo entre buenos y malos y que los malos siempre serán los culpables sólo por el hecho de ser los malos sin mirar objetivamente qué ha pasado.

Saludos.

[Orel]

Esta vez les ha salido bien por poco

Estas dos veces, querrás decir (F-4 y CN235). Sea provocación o no, que no digo lo contrario. Pero tampoco hay que picar fácilmente, ¿no?

[poliorcetes]

Si te insultan o te hacen el gesto del amor digital, te puedes contener. Si te tiran abajo un pájaro y matan a dos de tus pilotos, no siempre es sencillo. Sobre todo tratándose de los militares turcos, y de las veces que no han hecho lo propio con pájaros sirios.

[ruso]

Sí, claro, si a uno le entran a robar en su casa y se defiende el culpable es el dueño de la casa que ha tenido la desfachatez de defenderse y el ladrón es la víctima. ¿O eso es así sólo cuando el ladrón es turco y el dueño de la casa es sirio?. Supongo que si el ladrón fuese sirio y el dueño de la casa fuese israelí lo justificado sería apalizar al ladrón y luego ir a visitar a sus amigos para darles un toque de atención para quitarles las ganas de hacer futuras visitas.

Saludos.

[charly015]

Saludos

Ya salió la bisha a la palestra... hoy se publica por una pila de medios que la Federación Rusa no entregó a Siria las S-300PMU2 que quería adquirir.

A todo esto, primero se dió el protagonismo al Pantsir S1 -en Turquía, me refiero- y ahora se lo dan al Buk M2.

Ya sabéis que en Siria se lo dan a un cañón antiaéreo sin especificar qué modelo o sistema.

UN SALUDO

[poliorcetes]

Sí, claro, si a uno le entran a robar en su casa y se defiende el culpable es el dueño de la casa que ha tenido la desfachatez de defenderse y el ladrón es la víctima. ¿O eso es así sólo cuando el ladrón es turco y el dueño de la casa es sirio?. Supongo que si el ladrón fuese sirio y el dueño de la casa fuese israelí lo justificado sería apalizar al ladrón y luego ir a visitar a sus amigos para darles un toque de atención para quitarles las ganas de hacer futuras visitas.

Saludos.

Hace unos cuantos posts se ha mencionado la denuncia por parte de turquía de 5 penetraciones (cortas) en el espacio aéreo propio, por supuesto sin sacar la mano a pasear.

Se puede captar ELINT sin necesidad de penetrar el espacio aéreo enemigo. Una penetración puede ser un fallo de navegación. Aunque sea poco probable, tirar abajo un pájaro y perder a su tripulación sin dar avisos no es ser una víctima de nada, precisamente.

Siguiendo tu ejemplo, es como si alguien entra en tu casa y nada más pasar el umbral le levantas la tapa de los sesos con tu escopeta de caza. Eso no sería muy admisible por parte de un juez, si se encuentra a un tipo sin cabeza en el atestado encima de una alfombrilla de ikea (ahora roja) que dice "bienvenido a la república de tu casa"

[ruso]

Siguiendo tu ejemplo, es como si alguien entra en tu casa y nada más pasar el umbral le levantas la tapa de los sesos con tu escopeta de caza. Eso no sería muy admisible por parte de un juez, si se encuentra a un tipo sin cabeza en el atestado encima de una alfombrilla de ikea (ahora roja) que dice "bienvenido a la república de tu casa"

Seguramente en Tejas no habría muchos problemas con un caso así.

Y si los sirios se han colado en espacio aéreo turco (o en suelo turco) que les hubiesen dado caña, que estaban los turcos en su derecho.

Saludos.

[poliorcetes]

Dejando aparte que me parece que la legislación internacional no funciona así en ausencia de guerra declarada, está el pragmatismo: en estado de debilidad, joder a un vecino con el que te has dejado de llevar bien no es una buena idea si es más fuerte que tú. Y como decía, en esa zona todo se supedita a la percepción de la fuerza ajena... hasta que alguien se le va la mano con el envite y se lleva una ración de bofetás.

Hay muchas, muchas cuentas que saldar. Jorobar a alguien más, con el que no tenías cuentas pendientes, no es lo más sensato que se me ocurre para sobrevivir. Porque, llegado el caso, tu Gran Aliado (aka República Islámica de Irán) puede llegar a la conclusión de que tu régimen está en modo antes-muerta-que-sencilla, y no ponerse a tu lado cuando decides zurrarte con todos los demás vecinos posibles, escupiendo al coche de tu amigo ruso ya que te pones.

La camarilla de Bashar ha hecho un gran esfuerzo en sacar todas las lecciones equivocadas posibles y el tiempo se le agota. De hecho, ya viven de prestado gracias al tiempo que les ha conseguido Rusia no sin esfuerzo

[kenubal]

Siguiendo tu ejemplo, es como si alguien entra en tu casa y nada más pasar el umbral le levantas la tapa de los sesos con tu escopeta de caza. Eso no sería muy admisible por parte de un juez, si se encuentra a un tipo sin cabeza en el atestado encima de una alfombrilla de ikea (ahora roja) que dice "bienvenido a la república de tu casa"

Seguramente en Tejas no habría muchos problemas con un caso así.

Viva Texas :

[poliorcetes]

Turkish Phantom shot down by Syria saga continues as new details about the mysterious shooting emerge
from The Aviationist by Richard Clements
On Jun. 26, NATO held a meeting of its 28 members at the request of Turkey under article 4 of the Washington treaty following the downing of the Turkish Air Force RF-4E Phantom by a Syrian Air Defense battery on Jun.22.

After the meeting NATO released the following statement:

The North Atlantic Council has met at Turkey’s request to hold consultations within the framework of Article 4 of the Washington Treaty which states that “the Parties will consult whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence, or security of any of the Parties is threatened.”

The North Atlantic Council discussed the shooting down of a Turkish aircraft by Syria. We consider this act to be unacceptable and condemn it in the strongest terms. It is another example of the Syrian authorities’ disregard for international norms, peace and security, and human life.

Our thoughts at this difficult time are with the missing Turkish aircrew, their families and their loved ones. We continue to follow the situation closely and with great concern, and will remain seized of developments on the South-Eastern border of NATO.

The security of the Alliance is indivisible. We stand together with Turkey in the spirit of strong solidarity.

The New York Times ran an article (later picked up elsewhere) that included a scan of a letter sent from Turkey to the UN.

The letter includes several details that provide a clear view of the Turkish version of the episode.

Firstly the exact position of where the Phantom was hit: 35 48.22N – 35 32.21E which is 13NM from the coast of Syria and therefore in international airspace. This means the aircraft had violated the Syrian airspace but, according to the Turkish authorities, it had already left it when it was shot down at 11.58 local time.

Secondly according to the text of the letter, was flying at 7,400 feet on its own (not part of a pair) and after being hit turned towards the Syrian coast and hit the sea at 35 48.26N – 35 37.59E some 8NM from the coast.

Again the letter states the plane was transmitting its IFF (indentification, friend or foe) transponder and that Turkey has captured radio communications that demonstrates Syrian units knew this was a Turkish plane. The letter also alluded that Turkey may have proof from third party radar stations that could have recorded the route flown by the combat plane.

Noteworthy, the letter does not say that the RF-4ETM (this is the correct designation) was downed by a missile. However, if it was really flying so far from the coast (13 NM) and at medium altitude (7,400 ft), it could not be reached by anti-aircraft artillery flak.

Moreover, the letter confirmed that a search and rescue asset was fired upon whilst searching for the downed aircrew: it was a CASA (thought to be a CN-235) aircraft targeted by anti-aircraft artillery positioned on the Syrian shore.

Letter aside, new details about the mysterious Turkish activity near the Syrian territorial waters have emerged.

As said the aircraft was flying a preplanned route which included several similar patterns (this being one of the few things both parties agree on).

According to the data released by Turkey here’s how the airspace violation developed:

11.42LT: the aircraft “unintentionally” entered the Syrian airspace at 200 feet with a North East heading

11.44LT: a Turkish radar station (most probably the one providing assistance to the flight) issued an airspace violation warning

11.47LT: after turning left (and coming extremely close to the Syrian coast) the RF-4 exited the Syrian airspace

11.50LT: the pilot contacted the Turkish radar to inform it that they would have performed the same profile and asking for positive radar control not to repeat airspace violation.

11.58LT: the Phantom was hit while it was repositioning for a second pattern

Although it is extremely weird that the Syrian air defense shot down the Phantom 15 minutes after it violated the Syrian airspace (according to the Turkish version), it is at least as suspect that a combat plane flying under positive radio and radar contact, possibly under radar control or advisory service, violates a foreign airspace without being warned by its own air traffic control agency well before the violation occurs.

http://theaviationist.com/2012/06/27/tuaf-f4-update/

[poliorcetes]

Syria: End Indiscriminate Shootings of Civilians Fleeing Country
Border Forces Appear to Shoot on Sight Syrians Fleeing to Jordan

JUNE 27, 2012


© 2011 Human Rights Watch
Syria says it is fighting armed terrorists, yet its border forces appear to shoot at everyone crossing the border without distinction, attacking civilian men, women, children and the wounded the same way they attack fighters. By indiscriminately attacking civilians fleeing across its borders, Syria violates fundamental human rights, including the right to life, the right to leave one’s country, and the right to seek asylum in another country.
Gerry Simpson, senior refugee researcher and advocate for Human Rights Watch.


(Amman) – Syrian soldiers on the border with Jordan appear to be shooting indiscriminately at anyone - including civilian women and children - trying to flee from Syria, Human Rights Watch said today. The Syrian authorities should immediately order its armed forces on the border to end all indiscriminate attacks and take all feasible measures to avoid injuries to civilians crossing into neighboring countries, and to respect their right to leave the country.

In mid-June, Human Rights Watch spoke with 17 Syrian refugees in Jordan who said that when they fled in May and June across the border in groups of up to 200 civilians accompanied by members of the Free Syrian Army (FSA), Syrian soldiers subjected them to sustained machine gun and sniper fire, killing three civilians and wounding 11. All of the refugees described incidents in which the Syrian army opened fire without warning, and fired on everyone who was crossing the border, FSA fighters and civilian men, women and children alike.

“Syria says it is fighting armed terrorists, yet its border forces appear to shoot at everyone crossing the border without distinction, attacking civilian men, women, children and the wounded the same way they attack fighters,” said Gerry Simpson, senior refugee researcher and advocate for Human Rights Watch. “By indiscriminately attacking civilians fleeing across its borders, Syria violates fundamental human rights, including the right to life, the right to leave one’s country, and the right to seek asylum in another country.”

A Syrian army defector told Human Rights Watch that fellow defectors from the Jordanian-Syrian border guard told him they had been ordered to shoot at anyone trying to leave or enter the country without passing through an official border post, and that some of the soldiers refused to carry out the order.

Human Rights Watch also spoke to civilian refugees who were shot at by Syrian soldiers when crossing the border into Iraq. Refugees International and a number of media reports also indicate that Syrian soldiers have shot civilians fleeing the violence into Lebanon.

During a three-day period in Jordan in mid-June, Human Rights Watch interviewed a total of 21 Syrian refugees who had recently arrived in Jordan who said that they and around 1,100 other civilians had fled across the border to Jordan with the help of the Free Syrian Army (FSA).

17 of them said Syrian soldiers fired on their groups when they were crossing the border at night. They said they had seen, or later heard, that the Syrian army killed three civilians, wounded 11 - including a pregnant woman – and arrested around 170 civilians, including over 100 women and children whose fate is unknown to Human Rights Watch.

Most crossed in groups of 30 to 200 people, including infants and people injured in fighting elsewhere in Syria, and were accompanied by members of the FSA near the only remaining official border crossing between the two countries, near the Syrian town of Dar`a and the Jordanian town of Ramtha.

Only four refugees said their groups had not been fired upon while crossing.

The vast majority of the refugees said soldiers on foot and in trucks appeared close to the border and that without warning fired machine guns at them from what was usually a distance of 200 – 300 meters. The refugees said the FSA generally did not shoot back at the Syrian soldiers, having told them they wanted to avoid a gun battle in which civilians would likely get caught in the cross-fire, although the FSA did shoot back if the soldiers came close. Some of the fleeing civilians were pinned down for as long as three hours when the FSA with them returned fire.

A mother of five children who was caught, and who then escaped to Jordan on her second attempt following her release, described what happened the first time she tried to cross the border:

I was with my five young children in a group of 250 people, with many women and children, the elderly and injured people. The FSA was with us. We walked for an hour and reached the Syrian side of the border and realized we were almost in Jordan. Then we heard shooting from nearby and the group scattered. I threw myself onto the ground and covered three of my children with my body. The other two ran away and I heard later they managed to escape across the border. The shooting lasted for an hour and then the [Syrian] soldiers reached us and took us away [to detain us].

Many refugees said they were forced to crawl through the sand or run as fast as they could to cover the remaining 50 – 100 meters before they reached the Jordanian border line.

Human Rights Watch spoke with five refugees who injured themselves when they crawled underneath or through the barbed wire marking the Jordanian side of the border. Many more said they knew of people who had suffered severe cuts from the barbed wire.

A young man who fled fighting in his home town of Maraa in late May said:

Bedouin guides working with the FSA guided us through the border area at night. We were around 50 men and women, and a few children. Suddenly a military truck appeared and people in the truck started shooting at us, without any warning. We scattered and I ran as fast as I could to reach the barbed wire on the Jordanian side, about 100 meters away. I cut myself badly as I crossed. Only 22 of us, mostly men, made it. The other 30, mostly women, must have been arrested and taken away. One of the others who made it later called the Bedouins who said one woman had been shot and killed during the shooting and that two men and a child had been injured.

“Syria is forcing its own desperate civilians to crawl out of their country under a hail of bullets,” said Simpson. “Firing indiscriminately on civilians attempting to flee their homeland is damning evidence of Syria’s abysmal failure to meet its sovereign responsibility to protect its own citizens.”

Refugees said that as soon as they crossed the border, the Jordanian military was present and helped them reach safety.

Syria and Jordan share a 375-kilometer border, most of which is desert and uninhabited on both sides. For civilians trying to flee to Jordan, this leaves a stretch of approximately 100 kilometers located in Jordan’s north-west that is suitable for crossing. Civilians are generally crossing with FSA members in Syria’s Daraa governorate, opposite the Jordanian border town of Ramtha where the FSA is better able to operate compared to other parts of the border.

According to Jordanians in Ramtha, the only official border crossing on the Syrian-Jordan border that is theoretically open to anyone wanting to leave or enter Syria is the Naseeb-Jader crossing about 20 kilometers to the north east of Ramtha, while since June 2011 the Ramtha-Daraa crossing has only been open for traders.

But many refugees said they or their relatives had been turned back by Syrian guards at the border crossing for no official reason. Some refugees told Human Rights Watch they knew of other families who had managed to bribe Syrian border guards at the Naseeb-Jader crossing to let them leave Syria, paying around 30,000 Syrian Pounds (USD 470) per family.

Syrian refugees in Iraq also told Human Rights Watch that they came under fire while fleeing Syria. One 19-year-old Syrian refugee in Iraq said that a Syrian border patrol shot at his mixed group of 37 civilians and FSA fighters on April 8 at 2 a.m. when they were about 400 meters from the border. “Shots rang out from the border patrol base toward us,” he said. “I saw two from our group getting shot and dropping to the ground. I don’t know if they survived because after that we all scattered in different directions.”

The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which Syria has signed, provides that any person is entitled to leave his or her country, which includes long-term residents such as Palestinians in Syria, and that this right may only be restricted under circumstances "which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order, public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others” and which “are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant." Syria has made no declaration explaining why civilians, including women, children and the injured, may not leave the country, nor explained why it is using lethal force to try and stop them.

Human Rights Watch said that even when FSA fighters are present with the civilians, and engaged in fighting, the Syrian soldiers must take all feasible steps to minimize harm to the civilians, including ensuring its attacks only target military objectives. FSA fighters must also take all feasible steps to ensure that civilians are not harmed, including by ensuring that their deployment does not draw attacks onto the civilians. But all the accounts given by the refugees state that the Syrian army has opened fire without warning on everyone crossing the border, without drawing any distinction between the civilians and the FSA fighters.

Since the beginning of anti-government protests in Syria in March 2011, just over 26,000 Syrians have registered as refugees in Jordan.
“If Syria wants to prove it has its own citizen’s interest at heart, allowing its civilians to leave the country without killing them is the place to start,” said Simpson.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/06/27/syri ... ng-country

[Edu]

Estoy de vacaciones y bastante desconectado del mundo, pero en Euronews se han pasado la tarde hablando (en portugués, igual no lo he pillado todo) de una posible declaración de guerra de Turquía a Siria...